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MPEG-4 Audio Lossless: final specifications, ...and first encoder is available!
guruboolez
post Dec 28 2005, 22:43
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This moment was awaited for a long time, MPEG-4 lossless audio (ALS) specifications are now ready. Standardization were finalized recently and it was announced in Japan by the NTT company (source: here and in french)

MAIN FEATURES:

• Support for PCM resolutions of up to 32-bit at arbitrary sampling rate (including 16/44.1, 16/48, 24/48, 24/96, 24/192).
• Multi-channel / multi-track support for up to 65536 channels (including 5.1 surround).
• Support for 32-bit IEEE floating point audio data.
• Optional storage in MP4 file format (allows multiplex with video).

more info: here
download page: here
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guruboolez
post Dec 28 2005, 22:48
Post #2





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Posts: 3474
Joined: 7-November 01
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I'm currently running a comparison between the freely available MPEG-4 ALS encoder and other popular lossless tools.

My table:
- MPEG-4 {default}
- flac 1.1.2 -8
- WavPack 4.3 -fx5
- WavPack 4.3 -x4
- Monkey's Audio 3.99 "fast" /-c1000
- Monkey's Audio 3.99 "normal" / -c2000


Files are my 150 reference full tracks (=16 hours of music), classical music only.

CODE

---------------------------------------------------------------------
MPEG-4 flac -8 WPack -fx5 WPack -x4 MAC 1000 MAC 2000
---------------------------------------------------------------------
| | | | |
614,28 | 633,87 | 628,72 | 618,27 | 616,05 | 603,20
---------------------------------------------------------------------
| | | | |
550,7 | 575,7 | 566,3 | 560,2 | 562,3 | 549,8
824,9 | 821,5 | 862,6 | 837,8 | 825,1 | 790,3
902,1 | 904,0 | 906,2 | 875,4 | 868,6 | 842,5
867,1 | 870,9 | 878,8 | 867,9 | 864,5 | 852,4
717,0 | 742,3 | 767,9 | 740,1 | 731,1 | 703,4
307,6 | 347,4 | 336,1 | 333,4 | 331,5 | 321,5
619,9 | 633,2 | 628,1 | 619,2 | 614,1 | 607,0
581,3 | 592,2 | 591,0 | 584,4 | 582,1 | 566,6
515,8 | 530,4 | 523,4 | 520,4 | 518,4 | 515,0
552,1 | 554,3 | 569,5 | 557,8 | 560,5 | 542,7
591,3 | 611,3 | 599,5 | 592,7 | 591,1 | 584,5
462,9 | 486,2 | 472,0 | 466,9 | 465,0 | 456,4
690,5 | 729,9 | 756,4 | 713,2 | 707,7 | 664,7
599,6 | 614,0 | 608,0 | 599,1 | 594,6 | 585,7
566,1 | 583,8 | 577,4 | 565,5 | 561,2 | 552,7
650,7 | 657,4 | 665,0 | 652,3 | 648,8 | 634,4
474,3 | 503,9 | 498,2 | 485,0 | 476,2 | 459,5
649,1 | 665,5 | 671,9 | 654,6 | 652,5 | 640,1
584,2 | 607,9 | 594,2 | 587,0 | 587,3 | 577,1
549,1 | 581,7 | 561,7 | 556,8 | 556,1 | 542,5
679,3 | 695,4 | 688,3 | 681,1 | 681,0 | 672,0
630,1 | 644,3 | 642,9 | 633,9 | 630,9 | 618,6
505,1 | 533,8 | 520,3 | 509,0 | 508,5 | 499,0
484,9 | 509,5 | 496,9 | 492,2 | 489,4 | 483,5
354,1 | 373,6 | 372,8 | 364,9 | 359,1 | 349,4
487,4 | 508,5 | 495,6 | 491,3 | 490,4 | 486,0
674,9 | 686,5 | 679,6 | 673,7 | 669,6 | 663,9
507,7 | 532,8 | 519,4 | 511,3 | 507,6 | 499,5
463,2 | 486,4 | 471,5 | 468,1 | 463,1 | 457,8
761,2 | 774,0 | 771,9 | 761,2 | 759,5 | 749,5
575,3 | 597,7 | 585,5 | 576,3 | 574,5 | 560,5
537,3 | 555,1 | 548,5 | 540,9 | 537,1 | 524,1
621,0 | 648,7 | 632,1 | 620,0 | 620,3 | 607,9
626,7 | 635,8 | 643,8 | 626,8 | 627,7 | 614,2
638,8 | 656,4 | 653,8 | 639,4 | 637,9 | 625,3
859,0 | 865,5 | 871,8 | 859,2 | 860,2 | 846,1
762,1 | 777,1 | 772,7 | 763,0 | 764,6 | 754,9
739,6 | 758,1 | 759,5 | 745,1 | 750,0 | 721,6
450,2 | 477,5 | 463,0 | 459,5 | 457,2 | 449,6
668,5 | 696,1 | 692,6 | 678,4 | 676,1 | 658,6
850,7 | 865,9 | 871,6 | 855,4 | 859,4 | 841,9
564,9 | 589,9 | 576,1 | 568,4 | 568,2 | 558,2
553,0 | 572,1 | 564,0 | 556,1 | 555,5 | 545,1
538,1 | 555,5 | 546,5 | 537,9 | 534,8 | 527,0
526,4 | 552,5 | 533,5 | 526,6 | 524,3 | 516,6
734,1 | 746,4 | 743,8 | 735,4 | 733,8 | 726,2
709,4 | 720,1 | 722,0 | 712,4 | 709,7 | 698,0
692,4 | 712,9 | 705,8 | 693,8 | 692,4 | 676,5
462,9 | 469,4 | 467,3 | 463,2 | 456,9 | 452,6
844,3 | 849,8 | 844,5 | 841,6 | 839,6 | 833,8
608,1 | 625,6 | 622,8 | 612,5 | 612,4 | 599,0
656,8 | 674,9 | 664,6 | 655,3 | 651,2 | 643,7
676,3 | 694,3 | 684,5 | 677,9 | 677,0 | 666,8
619,1 | 654,7 | 631,2 | 620,1 | 621,6 | 612,2
891,1 | 897,2 | 894,8 | 888,6 | 888,0 | 882,8
691,7 | 707,5 | 696,1 | 691,0 | 688,4 | 683,8
770,5 | 790,1 | 786,6 | 770,8 | 772,1 | 762,7
744,1 | 753,3 | 745,7 | 739,2 | 736,8 | 731,7
748,6 | 759,5 | 748,5 | 742,7 | 740,1 | 735,3
668,2 | 688,7 | 673,9 | 668,5 | 668,7 | 661,1
744,0 | 750,1 | 758,9 | 745,8 | 744,1 | 723,9
781,5 | 785,5 | 783,3 | 775,9 | 773,0 | 769,0
825,8 | 843,9 | 847,4 | 827,1 | 828,7 | 811,9
743,9 | 761,5 | 764,5 | 755,4 | 751,9 | 731,4
790,7 | 798,1 | 794,7 | 788,6 | 786,9 | 778,7
559,1 | 565,7 | 562,3 | 558,7 | 552,3 | 549,0
509,4 | 525,8 | 516,7 | 511,0 | 505,7 | 499,5
503,9 | 523,2 | 513,2 | 506,5 | 500,9 | 494,9
617,5 | 634,3 | 619,3 | 617,4 | 614,2 | 603,3
596,5 | 607,0 | 605,1 | 598,6 | 593,1 | 584,5
521,0 | 537,0 | 534,7 | 527,2 | 524,1 | 512,2
747,6 | 760,6 | 753,0 | 747,1 | 744,7 | 735,1
585,2 | 597,6 | 594,0 | 584,2 | 581,6 | 569,8
563,8 | 568,8 | 572,6 | 564,1 | 558,6 | 549,2
668,8 | 667,8 | 663,8 | 656,1 | 652,4 | 646,4
761,9 | 771,8 | 770,6 | 760,3 | 758,4 | 749,1
857,7 | 866,0 | 867,6 | 855,7 | 852,7 | 842,4
956,8 | 960,4 | 968,2 | 942,2 | 940,6 | 920,7
941,6 | 946,0 | 954,8 | 942,0 | 940,5 | 931,0
736,1 | 753,5 | 783,8 | 746,4 | 743,2 | 715,2
821,3 | 830,4 | 834,7 | 821,7 | 819,5 | 808,5
651,8 | 685,0 | 671,2 | 656,2 | 656,8 | 640,4
514,5 | 536,7 | 519,8 | 517,3 | 512,6 | 504,6
500,1 | 531,7 | 511,4 | 505,2 | 506,0 | 494,8
641,1 | 675,9 | 647,7 | 642,8 | 643,0 | 631,1
527,1 | 540,2 | 542,7 | 527,1 | 520,7 | 510,1
648,9 | 667,7 | 663,0 | 653,8 | 651,1 | 639,1
543,4 | 576,4 | 561,5 | 550,7 | 549,5 | 531,2
506,9 | 557,0 | 525,1 | 516,4 | 519,9 | 501,0
497,8 | 515,7 | 514,4 | 502,6 | 497,3 | 478,0
359,5 | 411,7 | 384,9 | 374,7 | 379,9 | 366,2
395,1 | 445,1 | 423,4 | 413,1 | 412,4 | 387,6
433,9 | 501,5 | 479,4 | 451,4 | 455,4 | 430,2
415,2 | 445,5 | 425,6 | 421,4 | 421,6 | 413,7
385,8 | 408,1 | 398,0 | 400,2 | 396,6 | 387,7
385,8 | 408,1 | 398,0 | 400,2 | 396,6 | 387,7
642,4 | 658,1 | 679,2 | 651,9 | 660,2 | 632,6
550,2 | 559,1 | 570,9 | 557,2 | 553,0 | 537,1
673,0 | 698,4 | 697,5 | 696,1 | 688,8 | 662,5
774,9 | 815,7 | 832,0 | 782,6 | 797,7 | 761,7
484,6 | 495,6 | 484,8 | 482,7 | 476,4 | 466,9
652,5 | 657,5 | 661,6 | 651,7 | 644,8 | 620,7
585,1 | 603,8 | 589,4 | 583,1 | 579,1 | 569,7
457,6 | 485,9 | 471,1 | 454,0 | 448,2 | 436,7
657,5 | 668,5 | 666,1 | 660,4 | 654,1 | 649,1
544,1 | 554,4 | 563,4 | 550,9 | 546,0 | 528,8
516,0 | 527,0 | 517,9 | 515,8 | 508,4 | 502,7
566,1 | 580,0 | 572,3 | 566,5 | 560,5 | 553,3
736,4 | 742,9 | 751,8 | 742,6 | 739,8 | 718,9
373,4 | 398,0 | 385,0 | 389,8 | 376,6 | 367,4
460,2 | 482,3 | 476,7 | 466,1 | 465,5 | 451,7
516,8 | 536,5 | 533,1 | 526,6 | 524,3 | 508,0
543,7 | 571,5 | 554,6 | 548,3 | 546,8 | 536,2
486,8 | 507,0 | 503,5 | 494,2 | 482,1 | 468,0
749,7 | 758,5 | 759,3 | 751,3 | 743,9 | 727,1
596,6 | 613,3 | 607,4 | 604,7 | 593,9 | 582,1
684,5 | 698,1 | 690,9 | 683,3 | 682,0 | 674,8
454,7 | 484,9 | 473,4 | 468,0 | 462,6 | 450,2
349,2 | 384,9 | 379,4 | 368,5 | 369,4 | 353,5
435,4 | 487,0 | 470,1 | 455,6 | 459,7 | 436,4
632,4 | 658,7 | 647,1 | 636,6 | 635,4 | 625,3
630,2 | 659,4 | 640,2 | 632,9 | 631,8 | 620,7
255,3 | 276,4 | 269,8 | 273,0 | 262,8 | 259,6
825,0 | 836,8 | 836,3 | 823,0 | 822,0 | 809,9
597,3 | 618,9 | 605,6 | 599,8 | 603,1 | 595,4
741,5 | 759,3 | 750,3 | 741,6 | 740,4 | 733,5
639,9 | 663,7 | 650,9 | 639,6 | 639,4 | 627,9
437,3 | 453,0 | 446,2 | 442,4 | 439,1 | 434,5
687,1 | 698,7 | 700,8 | 687,0 | 684,6 | 672,4
705,2 | 716,0 | 724,5 | 708,8 | 703,2 | 692,1
542,3 | 567,9 | 554,9 | 546,3 | 542,8 | 530,3
630,3 | 669,0 | 655,9 | 639,2 | 641,2 | 620,2
687,8 | 733,6 | 722,8 | 694,6 | 700,9 | 678,3
647,9 | 686,2 | 663,6 | 652,3 | 654,2 | 643,1
592,4 | 652,6 | 626,1 | 606,5 | 614,9 | 586,5
579,8 | 615,6 | 595,3 | 582,5 | 577,7 | 564,9
450,3 | 474,1 | 474,7 | 459,1 | 463,4 | 444,6
630,3 | 655,2 | 647,3 | 634,5 | 635,0 | 623,8
576,8 | 585,0 | 584,3 | 574,9 | 570,8 | 559,3
642,5 | 657,0 | 659,4 | 644,4 | 646,5 | 631,8
756,5 | 770,6 | 772,3 | 759,3 | 762,8 | 749,6
570,5 | 585,0 | 580,1 | 573,5 | 566,4 | 552,8
567,4 | 589,6 | 574,6 | 572,0 | 566,9 | 557,0
847,2 | 850,6 | 852,6 | 846,4 | 843,4 | 833,6
579,6 | 582,6 | 598,7 | 585,2 | 581,2 | 560,1
579,8 | 589,8 | 592,6 | 580,1 | 578,1 | 567,6
708,1 | 722,0 | 715,5 | 706,3 | 704,2 | 695,6
526,1 | 551,5 | 546,9 | 533,8 | 530,4 | 514,0
701,0 | 727,1 | 732,1 | 713,0 | 708,6 | 688,9
608,3 | 637,7 | 624,7 | 612,0 | 612,6 | 595,7
---------------------------------------------------------------------
| | | | |
614,28 | 633,87 | 628,72 | 618,27 | 616,05 | 603,20
---------------------------------------------------------------------
MPEG-4 flac -8 WPack-fx5 WPack -x4 MAC 1000 MAC 2000
---------------------------------------------------------------------



The comparison is meaningless without encoding and decoding speed. But I didn't find any decoder for measuring speed, and I'm running the encoding task on a laptop which is handicaped by a slow HDD. The comparison is just "informative".

EDIT: Monkey's audio bitrate were first wrong; they were edited one hour later. Sorry...

This post has been edited by guruboolez: Dec 31 2005, 20:42
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guruboolez
post Dec 28 2005, 22:58
Post #3





Group: Members (Donating)
Posts: 3474
Joined: 7-November 01
From: Strasbourg (France)
Member No.: 420



Usage (for interested people):

CODE
mp4alsRM16 - MPEG-4 Audio Lossless Coding (ALS), Reference Model Codec
 Version 16 for Win32
 (c) 2003-2005 Tilman Liebchen, Technical University of Berlin
   E-mail: liebchen@nue.tu-berlin.de
 Portions by Yuriy A. Reznik, RealNetworks, Inc.
   E-mail: yreznik@real.com
 Portions by Koichi Sugiura, NTT Advanced Technology corporation
   E-mail: ksugiura@mitaka.ntt-at.co.jp
 Portions by Takehiro Moriya, Noboru Harada and Yutaka Kamamoto, NTT
   E-mail: t.moriya@ieee.org, {n-harada,kamamoto}@theory.brl.ntt.co.jp

Usage: mp4alsRM16 [options] infile [outfile]

 In compression mode, infile must be a PCM file (wav, aif, or raw format)
 or a 32-bit floating point file (normalized, wav format type 3).
 Mono, stereo, and multichannel files with up to 65536 channels and up to
 32-bit resolution are supported at any sampling frequency.
 In decompression mode (-x), infile is the compressed file (.als).
 If outfile is not specified, the name of the output file will be generated
 by replacing the extension of the input file (wav <-> als).
 If outfile is '-', the output will be written to stdout. If infile is '-',
 the input will be read from stdin, and outfile has to be specified.

General Options:
 -c : Check accuracy by decoding the whole file after encoding.
 -d : Delete input file after completion.
 -h : Help (this message)
 -v : Verbose mode (file info, processing time)
 -x : Extract (all options except -v are ignored)
Encoding Options:
 -7 : Set parameters for optimum compression (except LTP, MCC, RLSLMS)
 -a : Adaptive prediction order
 -b : Use BGMC codes for prediction residual (default: use Rice codes)
 -e : Exclude CRC calculation
 -f#: ACF/MLZ mode: # = 0-7, -f6/-f7 requires ACF gain value
 -g#: Block switching level: 0 = off (default), 5 = maximum
 -i : Independent stereo coding (turn off joint stereo coding)
 -l : Check for empty LSBs (e.g. 20-bit files)
 -m#: Rearrange channel configuration (example: -m1,2,4,5,3)
 -n#: Frame length: 0 = auto (default), max = 65536
 -o#: Prediction order (default = 10), max = 1023
 -p : Use long-term prediction
 -r#: Random access (multiples of 0.1 sec), -1 = each frame, 0 = off (default)
 -s#: Multi-channel correlation (#=1-65536, jointly code every # channels)
      # must be a divisor of number of channels, otherwise -s is ignored
 -t#: Two methods mode (Joint Stereo and Multi-channel correlation)
      # must be a divisor of number of channels
 -u#: Random access info location, 0 = frames (default), 1 = header, 2 = none
 -z#: RLSLMS mode (default = 0: no RLSLMS mode,  1-quick, 2-medium 3-best )
Audio file support:
 -R : Raw audio file (use -C, -W, -F and -M to specifiy format)
 -S#: Sample type: 0 = integer (default), 1 = float
 -C#: Number of Channels (default = 2)
 -W#: Word length in bits per sample (default = 16)
 -F#: Sampling frequency in Hz (default = 44100)
 -M : 'MSByte first' byte order (otherwise 'LSByte first')
 -H#: Header size in bytes (default = 0)
 -T#: Trailer size in bytes (default = 0)
 -I : Show info only, no (de)compression (add -x for compressed files)

Examples:
 mp4alsRM16 -v sound.wav
 mp4alsRM16 -n1024 -i -o20 sound.wav
 mp4alsRM16 - sound.als < sound.wav
 mp4alsRM16 -x sound.als
 mp4alsRM16 -x sound.als - > sound.wav
 mp4alsRM16 -I -x sound.als



with foobar2000 (encoding only at the moment):
• extension: als
• parameters: -v %s %d
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David Nordin
post Dec 28 2005, 23:03
Post #4





Group: Members
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Joined: 1-October 01
From: Falkenberg
Member No.: 3810



QUOTE (guruboolez @ Dec 28 2005, 10:48 PM)
I'm currently running a comparison between the freely available MPEG-4 ALS encoder and other popular lossless tools.

My preliminary table:
- WavPack 4.3 -fx5
- MPEG-4 {default}
(other formats/setting are coming)

Files are my 150 reference full tracks (=16 hours of music), classical music only.

CODE

        WavPack  MPEG-4

A01...    566,3    550,7    -2,8 %
A02...    862,6    824,9    -4,4 %
A03...    906,2    902,1    -0,5 %
A04...    878,8    867,1    -1,3 %
A05...    767,9    717,0    -6,6 %
E01...    336,1    307,6    -8,5 %
E02...    628,1    619,9    -1,3 %
E03...    591,0    581,3    -1,7 %
E04...    523,4    515,8    -1,5 %
E05...    569,5    552,1    -3,1 %
E06...    599,5    591,3    -1,4 %
E07...    472,0    462,9    -1,9 %
E08...    756,4    690,5    -8,7 %
E09...    608,0    599,6    -1,4 %
E10...    577,4    566,1    -2,0 %
E11...    665,0    650,7    -2,2 %
E12...    498,2    474,3    -4,8 %
E13...    671,9    649,1    -3,4 %
E14...    594,2    584,2    -1,7 %
E15...    561,7    549,1    -2,3 %
E16...    688,3    679,3    -1,3 %
E17...    642,9    630,1    -2,0 %
E18...    520,3    505,1    -2,9 %
E19...    496,9    484,9    -2,4 %
E20...    372,8    354,1    -5,0 %
E21...    495,6    487,4    -1,7 %
E22...    679,6    674,9    -0,7 %
E23...    519,4    507,7    -2,3 %
E24...    471,5    463,2    -1,8 %
E25...    771,9    761,2    -1,4 %
E26...    585,5    575,3    -1,8 %
E27...    548,5    537,3    -2,0 %
E28...    632,1    621,0    -1,7 %
E29...    643,8    626,7    -2,6 %
E30...    653,8    638,8    -2,3 %
E31...    871,8    859,0    -1,5 %
E32...    772,7    762,1    -1,4 %
E33...    759,5    739,6    -2,6 %
E34...    463,0    450,2    -2,8 %
E35...    692,6    668,5    -3,5 %
E36...    871,6    850,7    -2,4 %
E37...    576,1    564,9    -2,0 %
E38...    564,0    553,0    -1,9 %
E39...    546,5    538,1    -1,5 %
E40...    533,5    526,4    -1,3 %
E41...    743,8    734,1    -1,3 %
E42...    722,0    709,4    -1,7 %
E43...    705,8    692,4    -1,9 %
E44...    467,3    462,9    -0,9 %
E45...    844,5    844,3    0,0 %
E46...    622,8    608,1    -2,4 %
E47...    664,6    656,8    -1,2 %
E48...    684,5    676,3    -1,2 %
E49...    631,2    619,1    -1,9 %
E50...    894,8    891,1    -0,4 %
E51...    696,1    691,7    -0,6 %
E52...    786,6    770,5    -2,1 %
E53...    745,7    744,1    -0,2 %
E54...    748,5    748,6    0,0 %
E55...    673,9    668,2    -0,8 %
E56...    758,9    744,0    -2,0 %
E57...    783,3    781,5    -0,2 %
E58...    847,4    825,8    -2,5 %
E59...    764,5    743,9    -2,7 %
E60...    794,7    790,7    -0,5 %
S01...    562,3    559,1    -0,6 %
S02...    516,7    509,4    -1,4 %
S03...    513,2    503,9    -1,8 %
S04...    619,3    617,5    -0,3 %
S05...    605,1    596,5    -1,4 %
S06...    534,7    521,0    -2,6 %
S07...    753,0    747,6    -0,7 %
S08...    594,0    585,2    -1,5 %
S09...    572,6    563,8    -1,5 %
S10...    663,8    668,8    0,8 %
S11...    770,6    761,9    -1,1 %
S12...    867,6    857,7    -1,1 %
S13...    968,2    956,8    -1,2 %
S14...    954,8    941,6    -1,4 %
S15...    783,8    736,1    -6,1 %
S16...    834,7    821,3    -1,6 %
S17...    671,2    651,8    -2,9 %
S18...    519,8    514,5    -1,0 %
S19...    511,4    500,1    -2,2 %
S20...    647,7    641,1    -1,0 %
S21...    542,7    527,1    -2,9 %
S22...    663,0    648,9    -2,1 %
S23...    561,5    543,4    -3,2 %
S24...    525,1    506,9    -3,5 %
S25...    514,4    497,8    -3,2 %
S26...    384,9    359,5    -6,6 %
S27...    423,4    395,1    -6,7 %
S28...    479,4    433,9    -9,5 %
S29...    425,6    415,2    -2,4 %
S30...    398,0    385,8    -3,1 %
S31...    398,0    385,8    -3,1 %
S32...    679,2    642,4    -5,4 %
S33...    570,9    550,2    -3,6 %
S34...    697,5    673,0    -3,5 %
S35...    832,0    774,9    -6,9 %
S36...    484,8    484,6    0,0 %
S37...    661,6    652,5    -1,4 %
S38...    589,4    585,1    -0,7 %
S39...    471,1    457,6    -2,9 %
S40...    666,1    657,5    -1,3 %
S41...    563,4    544,1    -3,4 %
S42...    517,9    516,0    -0,4 %
S43...    572,3    566,1    -1,1 %
S44...    751,8    736,4    -2,1 %
S45...    385,0    373,4    -3,0 %
S46...    476,7    460,2    -3,5 %
S47...    533,1    516,8    -3,1 %
S48...    554,6    543,7    -2,0 %
S49...    503,5    486,8    -3,3 %
S50...    759,3    749,7    -1,3 %
S51...    607,4    596,6    -1,8 %
S52...    690,9    684,5    -0,9 %
S53...    473,4    454,7    -4,0 %
S54...    379,4    349,2    -8,0 %
S55...    470,1    435,4    -7,4 %
V01...    647,1    632,4    -2,3 %
V02...    640,2    630,2    -1,6 %
V03...    269,8    255,3    -5,3 %
V04...    836,3    825,0    -1,4 %
V05...    605,6    597,3    -1,4 %
V06...    750,3    741,5    -1,2 %
V07...    650,9    639,9    -1,7 %
V08...    446,2    437,3    -2,0 %
V09...    700,8    687,1    -2,0 %
V10...    724,5    705,2    -2,7 %
V11...    554,9    542,3    -2,3 %
V12...    655,9    630,3    -3,9 %
V13...    722,8    687,8    -4,8 %
V14...    663,6    647,9    -2,4 %
V15...    626,1    592,4    -5,4 %
V16...    595,3    579,8    -2,6 %
V17...    474,7    450,3    -5,1 %
V18...    647,3    630,3    -2,6 %
V19...    584,3    576,8    -1,3 %
V20...    659,4    642,5    -2,6 %
V21...    772,3    756,5    -2,1 %
V22...    580,1    570,5    -1,7 %
V23...    574,6    567,4    -1,3 %
V24...    852,6    847,2    -0,6 %
V25...    598,7    579,6    -3,2 %
V26...    592,6    579,8    -2,2 %
V27...    715,5    708,1    -1,0 %
V28...    546,9    526,1    -3,8 %
V29...    732,1    701,0    -4,2 %
V30...    624,7    608,3    -2,6 %
________________________________
          628,72    614,28  -2,3 %



The comparison is meaningless with encoding and decoding speed. But I didn't find any decoder for measuring speed, and I'm running the encoding task on a laptop which is handicaped by a slow HDD. The comparison is just "informative".
*


This is just fantastic news!

*cheers*


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skelly831
post Dec 28 2005, 23:28
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Scince this MPEG-4 lossless audio is standardized, does this mean that hardware support will be at least more abundant than the currently available players with any kind of lossless support?


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guruboolez
post Dec 28 2005, 23:34
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QUOTE (skelly831 @ Dec 28 2005, 11:28 PM)
Scince this MPEG-4 lossless audio is standardized, does this mean that hardware support will be at least more abundant than the currently available players with any kind of lossless support?
*

Only if manufacturers are interested to implement lossless. And MPEG-4 ALS have to fight against other formats like:
- Apple Lossless
- WMA Lossless
- Sony's lossless
- FLAC

N.B. Monkey's normal has been add in the table.
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Busemann
post Dec 28 2005, 23:41
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Pretty cool. The big question now is who will adopt it... Let's hope Apple Lossless was just a stop-gap solution smile.gif
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skelly831
post Dec 28 2005, 23:50
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QUOTE (guruboolez @ Dec 28 2005, 02:34 PM)
QUOTE (skelly831 @ Dec 28 2005, 11:28 PM)
Scince this MPEG-4 lossless audio is standardized, does this mean that hardware support will be at least more abundant than the currently available players with any kind of lossless support?
*

Only if manufacturers are interested to implement lossless. And MPEG-4 ALS have to fight against other formats like:
- Apple Lossless
- WMA Lossless
- Sony's lossless
- FLAC

N.B. Monkey's normal has been add in the table.
*


Right, I don't see those companies abandoning their proprietary formats.


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HotshotGG
post Dec 29 2005, 00:17
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Yes, it uses BSAC (Bit-slice arithmetic coding). Correct me if I am wrong but isn't ALS hybrid codec that would be the purpose of BSAC? When I read the Research Paper on it that was the impression I got or am I missing something here? Is that something different.

QUOTE
Right, I don't see those companies abandoning their proprietary formats.


If there is money to be made from it they sure as hell won't at the cost of patenting some other general coding technique used in data compression.

This post has been edited by HotshotGG: Dec 29 2005, 00:25


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Zoom
post Dec 29 2005, 03:04
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I tried a few encodings just to see the kind of compression & speed to expect. I put the encoder on verbose to get the speed and bitrate. I put comparison bitrates next to the "Average Rate" row, the comparisons are FLAC 1.1.2 at compression level -8.
My computer is fairly modern, it consists of:

Athlon 64 3500+ (2200MHz)
2GB PC3200 RAM (128 Bit Dual Channel)
Encoding From: 36GB SATA HDD
Encoding To : 250GB SATA HDD


CODE
------------------------------------------------------
mp4als -v (default)
------------------------------------------------------
PCM file: 01.dixie chicks - i can love you better.wav
ALS file: 01.dixie chicks - i can love you better.als

Encoding... 100% done

Audio format : int / 16 bit / 44100 Hz / 2 ch
Bit rate : 1411.2 kbit/s
Playing time : 233.9 sec
PCM file size: 41254124 bytes
ALS file size: 29225703 bytes
Compr. ratio : 1.412 (70.84 %)
Average bps : 11.335
Average rate : 999.7 kbit/s [ FLAC -8 1007 kbit/s ]

Processing took 6.77 sec (34.6 x real-time)

------------------------------------------------------
mp4als -v (default)
------------------------------------------------------
PCM file: 01.dntel - (this is) the dream of evan and chan.wav
ALS file: 01.dntel - (this is) the dream of evan and chan.als

Encoding... 100% done

Audio format : int / 16 bit / 44100 Hz / 2 ch
Bit rate : 1411.2 kbit/s
Playing time : 344.9 sec
PCM file size: 60846284 bytes
ALS file size: 41706162 bytes
Compr. ratio : 1.459 (68.54 %)
Average bps : 10.967
Average rate : 967.3 kbit/s [ FLAC -8 939 kbit/s ]

Processing took 9.88 sec (34.9 x real-time)
------------------------------------------------------
mp4als -v (default)
------------------------------------------------------
PCM file: 01.enya - only time.wav
ALS file: 01.enya - only time.als

Encoding... 100% done

Audio format : int / 16 bit / 44100 Hz / 2 ch
Bit rate : 1411.2 kbit/s
Playing time : 218.0 sec
PCM file size: 38462300 bytes
ALS file size: 23376405 bytes
Compr. ratio : 1.645 (60.78 %)
Average bps : 9.724
Average rate : 857.7 kbit/s [ FLAC -8 874 kbit/s ]

Processing took 6.31 sec (34.5 x real-time)
------------------------------------------------------
mp4als -v (default)
------------------------------------------------------
PCM file: 01.eric clapton - tears in heaven.wav
ALS file: 01.eric clapton - tears in heaven.als

Encoding... 100% done

Audio format : int / 16 bit / 44100 Hz / 2 ch
Bit rate : 1411.2 kbit/s
Playing time : 273.1 sec
PCM file size: 48180764 bytes
ALS file size: 26903509 bytes
Compr. ratio : 1.791 (55.84 %)
Average bps : 8.934
Average rate : 788.0 kbit/s [ FLAC -8 805 kbit/s ]

Processing took 7.91 sec (34.5 x real-time)
------------------------------------------------------
mp4als -v (default)
------------------------------------------------------
PCM file: 01.sigur r≤s - sΘ lest.wav
ALS file: 01.sigur r≤s - sΘ lest.als

Encoding... 100% done

Audio format : int / 16 bit / 44100 Hz / 2 ch
Bit rate : 1411.2 kbit/s
Playing time : 520.5 sec
PCM file size: 91810364 bytes
ALS file size: 44832450 bytes
Compr. ratio : 2.048 (48.83 %)
Average bps : 7.813
Average rate : 689.1 kbit/s [ FLAC -8 703 kbit/s ]

Processing took 15.13 sec (34.4 x real-time)


I wanted to see how fast the encoder was with the "-7" switch, and at this point, it is very slow. Obviously this is an initial release and the specification is new, but man that's slow. biggrin.gif

CODE
------------------------------------------------------
mp4als -v -7 (Set parameters for optimum compression)
------------------------------------------------------
PCM file: 01.enya - only time.wav
ALS file: 01.enya - only time.als

Encoding... 100% done

Audio format : int / 16 bit / 44100 Hz / 2 ch
Bit rate     : 1411.2 kbit/s
Playing time : 218.0 sec
PCM file size: 38462300 bytes
ALS file size: 22675979 bytes
Compr. ratio : 1.696 (58.96 %)
Average bps  : 9.433
Average rate : 832.0 kbit/s

Processing took 186.70 sec (1.2 x real-time)


Interesting to see that the default settings are giving better compression than FLAC's highest setting. Seems the compression levels will be closer to Wavpack than FLAC. Very cool news, thanks for the info Guruboolez.

This post has been edited by Zoom: Dec 29 2005, 03:05
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guruboolez
post Dec 29 2005, 04:14
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Before the bed:

- WavPack 4.3 -fx5
- flac 1.1.2 -8
- Monkey's Audio 3.99 -normal
- MPEG-4 ALS 2005.12.28 {defaut}


The setting I used for WavPack and flac are those giving the best compressing ratio with no sacrifice on the decompressing speed. For MAC, I used he default setting, which offers IMO the best compromise between ratio (strong), encoding speed (fast) and decoding speed (decent).


CODE

flac WavPack MPEG-4 Monkey's
575,7 566,3 550,7 549,8
821,5 862,6 824,9 790,3
904,0 906,2 902,1 842,5
870,9 878,8 867,1 852,4
742,3 767,9 717,0 703,4
347,4 336,1 307,6 321,5
633,2 628,1 619,9 607,0
592,2 591,0 581,3 566,6
530,4 523,4 515,8 515,0
554,3 569,5 552,1 542,7
611,3 599,5 591,3 584,5
486,2 472,0 462,9 456,4
729,9 756,4 690,5 664,7
614,0 608,0 599,6 585,7
583,8 577,4 566,1 552,7
657,4 665,0 650,7 634,4
503,9 498,2 474,3 459,5
665,5 671,9 649,1 640,1
607,9 594,2 584,2 577,1
581,7 561,7 549,1 542,5
695,4 688,3 679,3 672,0
644,3 642,9 630,1 618,6
533,8 520,3 505,1 499,0
509,5 496,9 484,9 483,5
373,6 372,8 354,1 349,4
508,5 495,6 487,4 486,0
686,5 679,6 674,9 663,9
532,8 519,4 507,7 499,5
486,4 471,5 463,2 457,8
774,0 771,9 761,2 749,5
597,7 585,5 575,3 560,5
555,1 548,5 537,3 524,1
648,7 632,1 621,0 607,9
635,8 643,8 626,7 614,2
656,4 653,8 638,8 625,3
865,5 871,8 859,0 846,1
777,1 772,7 762,1 754,9
758,1 759,5 739,6 721,6
477,5 463,0 450,2 449,6
696,1 692,6 668,5 658,6
865,9 871,6 850,7 841,9
589,9 576,1 564,9 558,2
572,1 564,0 553,0 545,1
555,5 546,5 538,1 527,0
552,5 533,5 526,4 516,6
746,4 743,8 734,1 726,2
720,1 722,0 709,4 698,0
712,9 705,8 692,4 676,5
469,4 467,3 462,9 452,6
849,8 844,5 844,3 833,8
625,6 622,8 608,1 599,0
674,9 664,6 656,8 643,7
694,3 684,5 676,3 666,8
654,7 631,2 619,1 612,2
897,2 894,8 891,1 882,8
707,5 696,1 691,7 683,8
790,1 786,6 770,5 762,7
753,3 745,7 744,1 731,7
759,5 748,5 748,6 735,3
688,7 673,9 668,2 661,1
750,1 758,9 744,0 723,9
785,5 783,3 781,5 769,0
843,9 847,4 825,8 811,9
761,5 764,5 743,9 731,4
798,1 794,7 790,7 778,7
565,7 562,3 559,1 549,0
525,8 516,7 509,4 499,5
523,2 513,2 503,9 494,9
634,3 619,3 617,5 603,3
607,0 605,1 596,5 584,5
537,0 534,7 521,0 512,2
760,6 753,0 747,6 735,1
597,6 594,0 585,2 569,8
568,8 572,6 563,8 549,2
667,8 663,8 668,8 646,4
771,8 770,6 761,9 749,1
866,0 867,6 857,7 842,4
960,4 968,2 956,8 920,7
946,0 954,8 941,6 931,0
753,5 783,8 736,1 715,2
830,4 834,7 821,3 808,5
685,0 671,2 651,8 640,4
536,7 519,8 514,5 504,6
531,7 511,4 500,1 494,8
675,9 647,7 641,1 631,1
540,2 542,7 527,1 510,1
667,7 663,0 648,9 639,1
576,4 561,5 543,4 531,2
557,0 525,1 506,9 501,0
515,7 514,4 497,8 478,0
411,7 384,9 359,5 366,2
445,1 423,4 395,1 387,6
501,5 479,4 433,9 430,2
445,5 425,6 415,2 413,7
408,1 398,0 385,8 387,7
408,1 398,0 385,8 387,7
658,1 679,2 642,4 632,6
559,1 570,9 550,2 537,1
698,4 697,5 673,0 662,5
815,7 832,0 774,9 761,7
495,6 484,8 484,6 466,9
657,5 661,6 652,5 620,7
603,8 589,4 585,1 569,7
485,9 471,1 457,6 436,7
668,5 666,1 657,5 649,1
554,4 563,4 544,1 528,8
527,0 517,9 516,0 502,7
580,0 572,3 566,1 553,3
742,9 751,8 736,4 718,9
398,0 385,0 373,4 367,4
482,3 476,7 460,2 451,7
536,5 533,1 516,8 508,0
571,5 554,6 543,7 536,2
507,0 503,5 486,8 468,0
758,5 759,3 749,7 727,1
613,3 607,4 596,6 582,1
698,1 690,9 684,5 674,8
484,9 473,4 454,7 450,2
384,9 379,4 349,2 353,5
487,0 470,1 435,4 436,4
658,7 647,1 632,4 625,3
659,4 640,2 630,2 620,7
276,4 269,8 255,3 259,6
836,8 836,3 825,0 809,9
618,9 605,6 597,3 595,4
759,3 750,3 741,5 733,5
663,7 650,9 639,9 627,9
453,0 446,2 437,3 434,5
698,7 700,8 687,1 672,4
716,0 724,5 705,2 692,1
567,9 554,9 542,3 530,3
669,0 655,9 630,3 620,2
733,6 722,8 687,8 678,3
686,2 663,6 647,9 643,1
652,6 626,1 592,4 586,5
615,6 595,3 579,8 564,9
474,1 474,7 450,3 444,6
655,2 647,3 630,3 623,8
585,0 584,3 576,8 559,3
657,0 659,4 642,5 631,8
770,6 772,3 756,5 749,6
585,0 580,1 570,5 552,8
589,6 574,6 567,4 557,0
850,6 852,6 847,2 833,6
582,6 598,7 579,6 560,1
589,8 592,6 579,8 567,6
722,0 715,5 708,1 695,6
551,5 546,9 526,1 514,0
727,1 732,1 701,0 688,9
637,7 624,7 608,3 595,7
____________________________________
633,87 628,72 614,28 603,20


=> MPEG-4 ALS has a better ratio than the current "very fast" and modern lossless encoders (flac and WavPack fast)
=> MPEG-4 ALS has a worse ratio than Monkey's -normal / -c2000
(results for classical music, but from my experience the difference between formats are extrapolable to other musical genres - with a higher bitrate...)


As a consequence, I expect from this first implementation and for the encoding side to perform as good as Monkey's -fast/-c1000 (fast encoding/average decoding) or WavPack -x4 (very slow encoding/really fast decoding).
The question now is: how fast/complex is the decoding side? As fast as Wavpack/flac? Slower than Monkey's?

This post has been edited by guruboolez: Dec 29 2005, 04:32
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skamp
post Dec 29 2005, 04:28
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I did a small test on Where Is the Line by Björk, from the album Medúlla, ripped from a DVD-Audio (losslessly, search the forums). The audio is 24bit, 96kHz, 6 channels (5.1).

CODE
03 - Where Is the Line.wav: 462.827 MiB

mp4 (default):    185.525 MiB   0m 58.920s
mp4 -7 (best):    172.122 MiB  38m 21.697s

wavpack -hm:    241.043 MiB   1m  2.869s
wavpack -hmx1:    240.871 MiB   2m 50.220s
wavpack -hmx2:    215.992 MiB   5m 48.687s
wavpack -hmx3:    179.891 MiB  30m 50.188s
wavpack -hmx6:    to be done

flac --best:    238.116 MiB   3m 22.062s


I have to say, the results are very, VERY impressive. I'm currently encoding the whole album to wavpack -hmx6 for my own use, so I'll do more testing later. But man, I can't wait for that codec to be supported by Free Software (I use linux most of the time).

Edit: added the filesize of the reference .wav file.

This post has been edited by skamp: Dec 29 2005, 04:34


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benski
post Dec 29 2005, 05:30
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Does anybody know what patents are being used in MPEG-4 ALS and what the licensing terms are?
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dreamliner77
post Dec 29 2005, 08:06
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Just out of curiosity, has anyone done bit comparisons to prove total lossless-ness?


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atici
post Dec 29 2005, 08:31
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Wasn't LPAC the codec chosen a while ago for MPEG4 because of the lack of applicants?


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Zoom
post Dec 29 2005, 08:36
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QUOTE (dreamliner77 @ Dec 29 2005, 02:06 AM)
Just out of curiosity, has anyone done bit comparisons to prove total lossless-ness?
*


I just checked it out on a couple of files. The files I tested, coded then decoded all were bit accurate. I used the bit comparator in foobar2000. I checked the filesizes in windows and they were exact too.
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Garf
post Dec 29 2005, 10:53
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Try this:

-b : Use BGMC codes for prediction residual (default: use Rice codes)

Edit: hmm, I guess -7 already does that. What's the effect of -p ? Try -z3, too.

-7 -p -z3 should give best compression ratio

This post has been edited by Garf: Dec 29 2005, 20:35
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Zurman
post Dec 29 2005, 11:01
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Thanks Guru for the comparisson cool.gif
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Garf
post Dec 29 2005, 11:02
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QUOTE (HotshotGG @ Dec 29 2005, 01:17 AM)
Yes, it uses BSAC (Bit-slice arithmetic coding). Correct me if I am wrong but isn't ALS hybrid codec that would be the purpose of BSAC? When I read the Research Paper on it that was the impression I got or am I missing something here? Is that something different.
*


You are confusing it with SLS perhaps?
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HotshotGG
post Dec 29 2005, 11:17
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QUOTE
you are confusing it with SLS perhaps?


SLS that's what I am thinking of biggrin.gif


--------------------
College student/IT Assistant
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miros
post Dec 29 2005, 13:19
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Ok, here is an encoding/decoding speed test. Album used is The Joshua Tree from U2, athlon64 (1.8GHz) cpu and linux. I have used 32-bit executables as there isn't a 64-bit object file for the adaptive prediction algorithm in the mpeg4als.zip.

CODE
                   kbps        encoding    decoding
flac 1.1.2         770.0        53.9x      168.7x
flac 1.1.2 -8      767.2         7.1x      166.8x
wavpack 4.31       759.8        72.0x       77.6x
wavpack 4.31 -fx5  765.4         8.1x      101.8x
wavpack 4.31 -x4   748.6         3.5x       79.8x
mp4alsRM16         748.7        24.2x       69.2x
mp4alsRM16 -7      723.5         0.81x       6.65x

Edit: Added wavpack test.

This post has been edited by miros: Dec 29 2005, 15:40
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guruboolez
post Dec 29 2005, 13:37
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The table is updated on the second post of this thread. Were just added:
- MAC 3.99 -fast
- WavPack 4.3 -x4

Summary:

• MPEG-4 default = 614,28 kbps
• flac -8 = 633,87
• WavPack -fx5 = 628,72
• WavPack -x4 = 618,27

• MAC -c1000 = 616,05
• MAC -c2000 = 603,20


=> MPEG-4 default has nearly the same compression ratio on this musical genre than WavPack -hx4 and Monkey's Audio -fast.

Decoding speed (old Duron 800): x39 (WavPack) x20 (MAC)
Encoding speed (old Duron 800): x1.1 (WavPack) x19 (MAC)

I can't evaluate speed on my laptop: results are varying too much from one encoding/decoding to another one.

This post has been edited by guruboolez: Dec 29 2005, 15:05
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DARcode
post Dec 29 2005, 14:41
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QUOTE (skamp @ Dec 29 2005, 05:28 AM)
I did a small test on Where Is the Line by Björk, from the album Medúlla, ripped from a DVD-Audio (losslessly, search the forums). The audio is 24bit, 96kHz, 6 channels (5.1).

CODE
03 - Where Is the Line.wav: 462.827 MiB

mp4 (default):    185.525 MiB   0m 58.920s
mp4 -7 (best):    172.122 MiB  38m 21.697s

wavpack -hm:    241.043 MiB   1m  2.869s
wavpack -hmx1:    240.871 MiB   2m 50.220s
wavpack -hmx2:    215.992 MiB   5m 48.687s
wavpack -hmx3:    179.891 MiB  30m 50.188s
wavpack -hmx6:    to be done

flac --best:    238.116 MiB   3m 22.062s


I have to say, the results are very, VERY impressive. I'm currently encoding the whole album to wavpack -hmx6 for my own use, so I'll do more testing later. But man, I can't wait for that codec to be supported by Free Software (I use linux most of the time).

Edit: added the filesize of the reference .wav file.
*

Impressive! Now I'm really interested.


--------------------
WavPack 4.70.0 -b384hx6cmv/qaac 2.41 -V 100
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pest
post Dec 29 2005, 14:42
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for the amount of muscles ALS is throwing at the problem the results are a bit disappointing.
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DARcode
post Dec 29 2005, 15:11
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Just my own little test:

AMD Sempron64 3400+
Corsair 1GB DDR XMS3200XL Platinum TwinX (2x512MB) CAS2
2 X Samsung SpinPoint P120 SATA Series SP2504C (from one to the other)

CODE
81.974.300 10 - War Pigs.wav


wavpack -hx4

created 10 - War Pigs.wv in 390.01 secs (lossless, 29.80%)

57.548.910 10 - War Pigs.wv


mp4alsRM16.exe -7

*Stop Watch 00:08:24.61

57.289.738 10 - War Pigs.als


--------------------
WavPack 4.70.0 -b384hx6cmv/qaac 2.41 -V 100
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