IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

3 Pages V  < 1 2 3 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
MP3s generated with dbpoweramp not gapless
dancrocker
post Jan 19 2010, 01:00
Post #26





Group: Members
Posts: 24
Joined: 28-January 07
Member No.: 40077



QUOTE (garym @ Jan 18 2010, 17:53) *
QUOTE (dancrocker @ Jan 18 2010, 17:47) *
A question for you and others:
When you say your files play gaplessly, are you saying that the transition between tracks is perfect and flawless? If it isn't, then this is what I'm encountering. If it is, then this is what I'm trying to achieve.


In my case, my LAME mp3 files have a "perfect and flawless" (your words) transition between tracks 99.9% of the time. And I've actually tried hard to detect a glitch in transition, with headphones, etc. I will say that once in a while, I'll get a glitch when transitioning, usually a function of transitioning between a 30 minute song (e.g., grateful dead, dark star) and the following song. But I can go back and play song again and with the same exact songs, the transition is perfect. Then again, once in a while, I get a glitch in the middle of a song. These I chalk up to the ipod reloading its cache or something odd. It is a computer after all and is reading data from a harddrive.


Thanks for this. The behavior I'm seeing is repeatable every time there's a transition between tracks. Very strange...
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
garym
post Jan 19 2010, 01:08
Post #27





Group: Members
Posts: 510
Joined: 16-September 06
From: United States
Member No.: 35261



I recall that you said you are creating "320kbit CBR MP3s" with dbpa. I highly doubt this matters, but in my case all my LAME mp3 files are VBR of some sort (mostly -V2, but some are -V1 or even -V0). Again, probably not an issue, but just for grins, rip (or create from FLAC/WAV) some LAME mp3 files with VBR rather than CBR and check for the transition glitches you're hearing.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
dancrocker
post Jan 19 2010, 01:49
Post #28





Group: Members
Posts: 24
Joined: 28-January 07
Member No.: 40077



QUOTE (spoon @ Jan 18 2010, 11:56) *
On one of the tracks which has problems:

Re-Rip to mp3 (all in dBpoweramp)
Rip to Wave

Convert (again with dBpoweramp) that mp3 track to wave (so you have 2 wave files - original CD wave and decoded mp3 >> wave), next load them into your favourite audio editor (audacity if you have none) and compare the start and end of the track, as dBpoweramp would decode the mp3 file gapless, there should be no major distinctions in the wave form (taking into account one is mp3).


OK, I did this experiment. I created the two wavs as you suggested and opened them with garageband. Both waveforms look pretty much identical to me; they end exactly the same way. As a sanity check, I synced the wavs created from the MP3s to my iPod and they played perfectly. This is further evidence that the gapless info in the MP3s is right but that the iPod is not doing the right thing with the MP3s. Not only does foobar2000 behave but dbpoweramp interprets the info properly as well.

If others are not having this problem, there must be some difference between the MP3s I'm creating and the ones others are. Or, I suppose there could be something special about my iPod. As I said in my other response, perhaps this has nothing to do with gapless support (e.g. the metadata that deals with the MP3 encoder artifacts). I'm creating 320Kbps CBR files using the "high quality" encoding option in dbpoweramp. If you're having "flawless" track transitions, could you tell me what encoder settings you're using?

So, would it be a violation of copyright laws for me to send someone a couple of MP3s to try on their iPod? If not, I'd like to see what happens.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
greynol
post Jan 19 2010, 01:57
Post #29





Group: Super Moderator
Posts: 10000
Joined: 1-April 04
From: San Francisco
Member No.: 13167



If the tracks are protected by copyright, then yes, of course.

You can take a 30 second clip and split it up into two pieces if you like, however.


--------------------
Placebophiles: put up or shut up!
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
dancrocker
post Jan 19 2010, 02:27
Post #30





Group: Members
Posts: 24
Joined: 28-January 07
Member No.: 40077



QUOTE (dancrocker @ Jan 18 2010, 19:49) *
QUOTE (spoon @ Jan 18 2010, 11:56) *
On one of the tracks which has problems:

Re-Rip to mp3 (all in dBpoweramp)
Rip to Wave

Convert (again with dBpoweramp) that mp3 track to wave (so you have 2 wave files - original CD wave and decoded mp3 >> wave), next load them into your favourite audio editor (audacity if you have none) and compare the start and end of the track, as dBpoweramp would decode the mp3 file gapless, there should be no major distinctions in the wave form (taking into account one is mp3).


OK, I did this experiment. I created the two wavs as you suggested and opened them with garageband. Both waveforms look pretty much identical to me; they end exactly the same way. As a sanity check, I synced the wavs created from the MP3s to my iPod and they played perfectly. This is further evidence that the gapless info in the MP3s is right but that the iPod is not doing the right thing with the MP3s. Not only does foobar2000 behave but dbpoweramp interprets the info properly as well.

If others are not having this problem, there must be some difference between the MP3s I'm creating and the ones others are. Or, I suppose there could be something special about my iPod. As I said in my other response, perhaps this has nothing to do with gapless support (e.g. the metadata that deals with the MP3 encoder artifacts). I'm creating 320Kbps CBR files using the "high quality" encoding option in dbpoweramp. If you're having "flawless" track transitions, could you tell me what encoder settings you're using?

So, would it be a violation of copyright laws for me to send someone a couple of MP3s to try on their iPod? If not, I'd like to see what happens.


For what it's worth, I played some of the MP3s on my kid's 3 year old nano and there is still an ever so slight click between tracks. It's not as noticeable as on my 80G iPod, but it's there.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
kornchild2002
post Jan 19 2010, 02:47
Post #31





Group: Members
Posts: 2066
Joined: 8-April 05
From: Cincinnati, OH
Member No.: 21277



Well, just to try to further help you, I have tried encoding a couple more albums with dBpowerAMP and Lame 3.98.2. I used the CBR 320kbps setting, -V 2, and -V 0 all at normal quality. FYI - increasing the quality setting in dBpowerAMP (with Lame 3.98 and above) doesn't do anything. It changes the -q values that Lame encodes with. However, with Lame 3.98, I believe that -q3 (normal) and -q0 ("high quality") produce the same files. I say believe as I do not know the exact -q value numbers. I do know that going from normal to high quality doesn't change anything.

Have you tried restoring the iPod?
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
dancrocker
post Jan 19 2010, 03:26
Post #32





Group: Members
Posts: 24
Joined: 28-January 07
Member No.: 40077



QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Jan 18 2010, 20:47) *
Well, just to try to further help you, I have tried encoding a couple more albums with dBpowerAMP and Lame 3.98.2. I used the CBR 320kbps setting, -V 2, and -V 0 all at normal quality. FYI - increasing the quality setting in dBpowerAMP (with Lame 3.98 and above) doesn't do anything. It changes the -q values that Lame encodes with. However, with Lame 3.98, I believe that -q3 (normal) and -q0 ("high quality") produce the same files. I say believe as I do not know the exact -q value numbers. I do know that going from normal to high quality doesn't change anything.

Have you tried restoring the iPod?


Thanks. Out of curiosity, which CDs did you encode? Did they have gapless tracks? And, were you able to play them without glitches between tracks?
Also, yes, I did do the restore. It didn't change anything.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
dancrocker
post Jan 19 2010, 05:11
Post #33





Group: Members
Posts: 24
Joined: 28-January 07
Member No.: 40077



I decided to play around with the command line version of lame (3.98.2 on OS X) to see if I could produce different results. I ripped the CD using iTunes to get wav files. I used this command line:
lame -b 320 --CBR --nogap *.wav

It produced files that are *almost* perfect. FYI, I'm using Dark Side of the Moon as my test case. There are barely perceptible clicks between the first/second and second/third tracks but most of the other transitions sound perfect.

I also tried:
lame_new -V 2 --nogap *.wav

This produced some odd results. The first track (Speak to Me) ended up missing much of the music and is reported to have a bit rate of 32Kbps. As for the track transitions, they're pretty bad. I've never used lame command line so I probably did something wrong. Is there something special I need to do to do gapless with VBR?

This post has been edited by dancrocker: Jan 19 2010, 05:16
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
kornchild2002
post Jan 19 2010, 06:01
Post #34





Group: Members
Posts: 2066
Joined: 8-April 05
From: Cincinnati, OH
Member No.: 21277



QUOTE (dancrocker @ Jan 18 2010, 19:26) *
Thanks. Out of curiosity, which CDs did you encode? Did they have gapless tracks? And, were you able to play them without glitches between tracks?


The albums I used were gapless. Pink Floyd - Dark Side Of The Moon, Tool - Lateralus, Tool - 10,000 Days, and Korn - Issues. As I said, not a single issue on my iPod with either of the settings I used. Have you tried removing the --nogap option from the command line? I have never used that option with my encoding and yet the files I have playback gaplessly.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
greynol
post Jan 19 2010, 06:31
Post #35





Group: Super Moderator
Posts: 10000
Joined: 1-April 04
From: San Francisco
Member No.: 13167



The --nogap option is really old and pretty much useless these days. They were talking about its demise nearly 6 years ago:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=16020

This post has been edited by greynol: Jan 19 2010, 07:02


--------------------
Placebophiles: put up or shut up!
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
dancrocker
post Jan 19 2010, 07:37
Post #36





Group: Members
Posts: 24
Joined: 28-January 07
Member No.: 40077



QUOTE (greynol @ Jan 19 2010, 00:31) *
The --nogap option is really old and pretty much useless these days. They were talking about its demise nearly 6 years ago:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=16020


I can try without the nogap option. I actually didn't realize it wasn't recommended. So, do I need to do anything special to get gapless files?
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
greynol
post Jan 19 2010, 07:40
Post #37





Group: Super Moderator
Posts: 10000
Joined: 1-April 04
From: San Francisco
Member No.: 13167



Nope, though I have no idea what the problem is with your iPod.

This post has been edited by greynol: Jan 19 2010, 07:53


--------------------
Placebophiles: put up or shut up!
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
2Bdecided
post Jan 19 2010, 07:51
Post #38


ReplayGain developer


Group: Developer
Posts: 5058
Joined: 5-November 01
From: Yorkshire, UK
Member No.: 409



QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Jan 18 2010, 16:33) *
QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 18 2010, 02:39) *
I don't have an iPod, but are you saying that gapless = not quite gapless?!


Not at all. However, there are some instances when the transition from one song to the next is not smooth. I have heard this on my iPod a couple of times with Nero AAC files. There is a slight (less than one second) pause or click that can be heard when going from one song to another. So iPods are gapless but there are some instances where it might not be perfect (as with any technology). With the other person that I helped, we were able to download the sample and put it in an application. The little click/gap was actually around 0.3 seconds long. It wasn't anything to get all up in arms over.

So all I am saying is that gapless playback may have some instances (in my experience, these are few and far between if I even notice them at all) where it isn't truly gapless. It would be nice to determine if the OP is experiencing behavior like this or if there is an actual problem.
I think you're being far too forgiving.

If my CD player gave 0.3 second gaps on "gapless" CDs, then either the CD, or the player, would be going straight back to the shop!

Cheers,
David.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
spoon
post Jan 19 2010, 10:07
Post #39


dBpowerAMP developer


Group: Developer (Donating)
Posts: 2741
Joined: 24-March 02
Member No.: 1615



I might be wrong but I am sure that iTunes determines the gapless positions of a file before sending to the iPod, in that the iPod does not even read its own metadata, it is read by iTunes before uploading.


--------------------
Spoon http://www.dbpoweramp.com
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
robert
post Jan 19 2010, 13:37
Post #40


LAME developer


Group: Developer
Posts: 788
Joined: 22-September 01
Member No.: 5



@dancrocker
Do you add tags like APE or an additional ID3v1, things that the software players are all aware of, but your Ipod doesn't know? (just a guess)

This post has been edited by robert: Jan 19 2010, 13:38
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
DonP
post Jan 19 2010, 13:41
Post #41





Group: Members (Donating)
Posts: 1471
Joined: 11-February 03
From: Vermont
Member No.: 4955



QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Jan 18 2010, 11:33) *
QUOTE (2Bdecided @ Jan 18 2010, 02:39) *
I don't have an iPod, but are you saying that gapless = not quite gapless?!


Not at all. However, there are some instances when the transition from one song to the next is not smooth. I have heard this on my iPod a couple of times with Nero AAC files. There is a slight (less than one second) pause or click that can be heard when going from one song to another. So iPods are gapless but there are some instances where it might not be perfect (as with any technology). With the other person that I helped, we were able to download the sample and put it in an application. The little click/gap was actually around 0.3 seconds long. It wasn't anything to get all up in arms over.

So all I am saying is that gapless playback may have some instances (in my experience, these are few and far between if I even notice them at all) where it isn't truly gapless. It would be nice to determine if the OP is experiencing behavior like this or if there is an actual problem.


Less than 1 second? 0.3 seconds? Just what do you think "gapless" means? AFAIK the gap in mp3 that lame nogap addresses is on the order of 15 milliseconds.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
DonP
post Jan 19 2010, 13:44
Post #42





Group: Members (Donating)
Posts: 1471
Joined: 11-February 03
From: Vermont
Member No.: 4955



QUOTE (dancrocker @ Jan 19 2010, 01:37) *
I can try without the nogap option. I actually didn't realize it wasn't recommended. So, do I need to do anything special to get gapless files?


No need. The option is obsolete in the sense that it is on by default now.


Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
kornchild2002
post Jan 19 2010, 15:45
Post #43





Group: Members
Posts: 2066
Joined: 8-April 05
From: Cincinnati, OH
Member No.: 21277



QUOTE (DonP @ Jan 19 2010, 05:41) *
Less than 1 second? 0.3 seconds? Just what do you think "gapless" means? AFAIK the gap in mp3 that lame nogap addresses is on the order of 15 milliseconds.


I understand what gapless means. However, that doesn't mean that the iPod will always perform perfectly. That is what I have been trying to say. My experience with hard drive iPods is that gapless playback is not always 100% accurate. I am not sure where this comes from but my 5G 60GB iPod and 120GB iPod classic have both performed like this. About one song in a few thousand will not transition correctly. Whether I am being "too forgiving" or not, that is up to opinion. I don't think that hearing a small gap (if I even notice it) in a group of ~2000 songs is an issue.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
DonP
post Jan 19 2010, 16:35
Post #44





Group: Members (Donating)
Posts: 1471
Joined: 11-February 03
From: Vermont
Member No.: 4955



QUOTE (kornchild2002 @ Jan 19 2010, 09:45) *
My experience with hard drive iPods is that gapless playback is not always 100% accurate. I am not sure where this comes from but my 5G 60GB iPod and 120GB iPod classic have both performed like this. About one song in a few thousand will not transition correctly.


OK... looks like the issue is that the mechanical drive may not fetch the new file in the time allowed for by the firmware. Maybe the drive is too fragmented.

I did have the same issue with my old Riovolt (CDR player.) It did gapless vorbis ok with a CDR that was written all at once, but with a CDRW formatted for "drag, drop, delete" fetching the new file often involved too many head seeks and took too long.

This post has been edited by DonP: Jan 19 2010, 16:37
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
greynol
post Jan 19 2010, 16:42
Post #45





Group: Super Moderator
Posts: 10000
Joined: 1-April 04
From: San Francisco
Member No.: 13167



QUOTE (DonP @ Jan 19 2010, 04:44) *
The option is obsolete in the sense that it is on by default now.

This is not correct. An entirely different method is used.


--------------------
Placebophiles: put up or shut up!
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
kornchild2002
post Jan 19 2010, 19:08
Post #46





Group: Members
Posts: 2066
Joined: 8-April 05
From: Cincinnati, OH
Member No.: 21277



QUOTE (DonP @ Jan 19 2010, 08:35) *
OK... looks like the issue is that the mechanical drive may not fetch the new file in the time allowed for by the firmware. Maybe the drive is too fragmented.


I was thinking that it might be mechanical in that the hard drive is spinning up and filling the temporary memory while the software continues to play the music in the temp memory. I cannot verify this though as my 5G 60GB iPod and 120GB iPod classic models are in thick iSkin cases. I cannot feel or hear the hard drive spinning in those cases. It takes a few minutes to carefully take the case off and another few minutes to put it back on. So the problem I am talking about might occur on the rare occasion when the iPod's hard drive is spinning up and filling the temp memory while the software is switching from one song to the next one being loaded.

Based on what the OP is saying, I don't think this is the issue though. My reason for posting about it was to determine if the OP was experiencing this type of issue or is actually having gapless playback problems on their iPod. It sounds like iTunes is not scanning the files for gapless playback. The iPod does not rely on song metadata for gapless playback. Instead, iTunes scans the files and essentially tells the iPod how to play them back. iPods get most of their information from iTunes whether it is non-embedded album art, location of the files on the iPod's hard drive, gapless playback information, playlists, etc. Files will not playback gaplessly unless iTunes scans them before syncing to the iPod. dan reports never seeing iTunes scan the files. This makes me believe that iTunes is not scanning the files hence they aren't playing back gaplessly. There are over 5000 Lame mp3 files on my iPod yet I haven't experienced issues (aside from the one I mentioned but that occurs with Lame mp3, Nero AAC, and iTunes AAC files; it is also normal behavior for hard drive iPods and hardly noticeable; I didn't have this issue with my 1G 16GB iPod touch).

I should have said that all of the mp3 files I tested used ID3v2.3 tags only. Also, I found out that the problematic files have to be deleted from iTunes (but not the computer), iTunes has to be restarted, and then the files can be added back to iTunes. That will force iTunes to re-scan the files for gapless playback.

edit: grammar

This post has been edited by kornchild2002: Jan 19 2010, 19:09
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
garym
post Jan 19 2010, 20:53
Post #47





Group: Members
Posts: 510
Joined: 16-September 06
From: United States
Member No.: 35261



for the record, my mp3 files that work properly (gapless) are also all ID3v2.3 (only), tagged with either dbpa, mp3tag, or foobar (with compatibility mode turned on).
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
maggior
post Jan 19 2010, 21:04
Post #48





Group: Members
Posts: 200
Joined: 28-August 06
Member No.: 34552



QUOTE (spoon @ Jan 16 2010, 06:35) *
>dbPowerAmp or the free version? The free version uses BLADE
No it does not...


Sorry, I thought it did at some point. I guess that's changed.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
maggior
post Jan 19 2010, 21:15
Post #49





Group: Members
Posts: 200
Joined: 28-August 06
Member No.: 34552



QUOTE (dancrocker @ Jan 16 2010, 13:30) *
There was no gapless scanning; only something about "detmining song volume".


Wow, I can't believe we haven't figured this out yet. This should just simply work, which is what makes it difficult to figure out what's wrong.

Based on what you've described, I would concentrate on why you do not see the "determining gapless" message in iTunes when you import your music files. I think you've determined that the mp3 files themselves have been properly made. Ever since I've been using mp3 files encoded by LAME, I've seen this message in iTunes. I started out using version 7.x. I recently installed 9.x on my laptop. I've never had an issue like this.

You mention at one point using a older Nano and seeing an issue. That rules out fragmentation I would think.

Have you tried newer/older versions of iTunes? Perhaps the version of iTunes that you have has a bug.

I've never seen "determining song volume". Do you have somesort of gain feature turned on? Maybe you can try turning that off.

Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
garym
post Jan 19 2010, 21:22
Post #50





Group: Members
Posts: 510
Joined: 16-September 06
From: United States
Member No.: 35261



QUOTE (maggior @ Jan 19 2010, 15:15) *
I've never seen "determining song volume". Do you have somesort of gain feature turned on? Maybe you can try turning that off.


You'll only see this if you have SOUNDCHECK selected in ITUNES.
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

3 Pages V  < 1 2 3 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 24th July 2014 - 02:09