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Neil Young's new iPod killer!, Finally comes out.
moozooh
post Mar 20 2014, 16:05
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QUOTE (includemeout @ Mar 20 2014, 04:26) *
Nah, even if it will ever be, there are cheaper alternatives.

Which of them you're talking about? Last I checked, virtually all the DAPs at the upper end of hardware class (HiFiMan, Astel & Kern, Colorful, etc.) cost upwards of 400$, except probably iBasso DX50 which allegedly has a less powerful headphone amplifier. Most of them also seem larger than Pono. Those who consider a prismatic shape inconvenient has forgotten how iriver players looked in mid-2000s.


I'm in the potential market for a high-quality DAP as it becomes progressively harder and more expensive to upgrade and reanimate my ancient heavily modded H320. Over its lifetime I'd spent over 500$ on its parts and donor bodies to replace whatever was breaking down or wearing out. It's not going to become any cheaper as time goes. Unfortunately, none of the better DAPs are, as far as I'm aware, a target for Rockbox—something that is a deciding factor for me. Thich limits my options to pretty much none. If Pono became such a target, it could be a nice potential option, as I expect it to remain around for a reasonably long time.

This post has been edited by moozooh: Mar 20 2014, 16:07


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Canar
post Mar 20 2014, 17:07
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QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Mar 19 2014, 05:50) *
ESS is the new chipophile/audiophile favorite brand because they publicize their product directly to audiophiles.
This makes me leery. I owned an ESS Audiodrive, way back when. I've never been so underwhelmed with any audio hardware purchase.


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skamp
post Mar 20 2014, 18:01
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QUOTE (Canar @ Mar 20 2014, 17:07) *
This makes me leery. I owned an ESS Audiodrive, way back when. I've never been so underwhelmed with any audio hardware purchase.


The ODAC uses the ES9023, and it measures fine, so I wouldn't worry.


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Mach-X
post Mar 20 2014, 22:18
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QUOTE (Canar @ Mar 20 2014, 11:07) *
QUOTE (Arnold B. Krueger @ Mar 19 2014, 05:50) *
ESS is the new chipophile/audiophile favorite brand because they publicize their product directly to audiophiles.
This makes me leery. I owned an ESS Audiodrive, way back when. I've never been so underwhelmed with any audio hardware purchase.

Really? A mod on an objective audio forum like this and you judge a current product by a company on your experience with a 20 year old product from said company? Isn't that like deciding not to buy a ford focus cause you once had a pinto? XD
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bandpass
post Mar 21 2014, 10:47
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Serious backlash: Despite Pono's promise, experts pan HD audio

Game over?
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Maurits
post Mar 21 2014, 11:18
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This is a bit of an unfortunate quote:
QUOTE
"From a scientific point of view, there's no need to go beyond," said Bernhard Grill, leader of Fraunhofer Institute's audio and multimedia division and one of the creators of the MP3 and AAC audio compression formats. "It's always nice to have higher numbers on the box, and 24 bits sounds better than 16 bits. But practically, I think people should much more worry about speakers and room acoustics."
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splice
post Mar 21 2014, 11:46
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QUOTE (bandpass @ Mar 21 2014, 02:47) *


It's a good article, well written to its target audience. It mostly gets the technicalities right and covers the important parts. It quotes the "right" people.


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moozooh
post Mar 21 2014, 12:30
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I like the fact that they're putting heavy accent on room acoustics and loudspeaker quality, but that does look a little weird in an article inspired by a DAP—a device one typically uses with headphones. Voila, the "weakest link" is thus "eliminated".


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includemeout
post Mar 21 2014, 13:58
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QUOTE (bandpass @ Mar 21 2014, 06:47) *
Game over?

I wound't put all my money on that. Specially if you consider the fact that a big chunk of their target market consists of people who insist on being sold something they think they need and go on dismissing ABX tests for instance, as nothing but a hindrance to their constant wild goose chase.

This post has been edited by includemeout: Mar 21 2014, 13:58


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includemeout
post Mar 21 2014, 14:23
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QUOTE (moozooh @ Mar 20 2014, 12:05) *
QUOTE (includemeout @ Mar 20 2014, 04:26) *
Nah, even if it will ever be, there are cheaper alternatives.

Which of them you're talking about?


The widely-rockboxed Sansas (Fuze, Clip...) for instance.

QUOTE (moozooh @ Mar 20 2014, 12:05) *
Last I checked, virtually all the DAPs at the upper end of hardware class (HiFiMan, Astel & Kern, Colorful, etc.) cost upwards of 400$, except probably iBasso DX50 which allegedly has a less powerful headphone amplifier.

QUOTE (moozooh @ Mar 20 2014, 12:05) *
I'm in the potential market for a high-quality DAP


If not sound quality (which, as you obviously now, must be claimed with care over here), what would make you deem this or that DAP as being high-end? It isn't just the price tag, I suppose?

Late edit: doubled pronoun.

This post has been edited by includemeout: Mar 21 2014, 15:11


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Mach-X
post Mar 21 2014, 14:27
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As I understand it, 1 db is regarded as the quietest volume the human ear can perceive, ergo the 96 db dynamic range means that in order to maximize it you'd need to record sounds at 95 simultaneously with those at 1. And be able to hear both at the same time. And assume your transducers can handle it. And live in an anechoic chamber. And be listening to your music at 96 db at all times. Seriously is anybody listening to the 1812 overture at 96 db? And do you hear paper shuffling or flies sneezing while the cannon shots are going off?
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cpchan
post Mar 21 2014, 15:06
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QUOTE (moozooh @ Mar 20 2014, 10:05) *
Which of them you're talking about? Last I checked, virtually all the DAPs at the upper end of hardware class (HiFiMan, Astel & Kern, Colorful, etc.) cost upwards of 400$,


Just because they are expensive doesn't mean that they are good. Please backup your claims with RMAA results. For example, look at the sad RMAA results of the HiFiMan.

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DonP
post Mar 21 2014, 16:57
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QUOTE (Mach-X @ Mar 20 2014, 16:18) *
Really? A mod on an objective audio forum like this and you judge a current product by a company on your experience with a 20 year old product from said company? Isn't that like deciding not to buy a ford focus cause you once had a pinto? XD


A bad analogy for me. How many times has Ford launched an ad campaign of basically, "Quality... we got it right this time!"?

Some rating groups assess reliability/quality with initial defect counts. Consumer Reports surveys only cover 5 years. I won't believe until I see a high percentage of their cars reaching 200,000 miles, and at least a moderate percentage to 300,000. When they have that history, which will take 10-20 years, I'll consider current models.

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AliceWonder
post Mar 21 2014, 21:24
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If I buy a PORNO it isn't the music I care about being in high definition.
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Canar
post Mar 21 2014, 21:34
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QUOTE (Mach-X @ Mar 20 2014, 13:18) *
Really? A mod on an objective audio forum like this and you judge a current product by a company on your experience with a 20 year old product from said company? Isn't that like deciding not to buy a ford focus cause you once had a pinto? XD
Hey, come on now, one data point is better than none! Once bitten, twice shy, and all. wink.gif

I have a preference for German vehicles, anyhow. I'd only buy a Ford if for some inconceivable reason I had the inkling to buy a truck.

My complaint had nothing to do with audio quality but lots to do about compatibility claims and driver quality and whatnot.

This is getting brutally off-topic, however, and as a mod I must now check myself before, as they say in the vernacular, I wreck myself.

This post has been edited by Canar: Mar 21 2014, 21:39


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andy o
post Mar 22 2014, 03:16
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QUOTE (bandpass @ Mar 21 2014, 02:47) *


QUOTE
"From a scientific point of view, there's no need to go beyond," said Bernhard Grill, leader of Fraunhofer Institute's audio and multimedia division and one of the creators of the MP3 and AAC audio compression formats.

Of course he would say that, he's a shill for Big Lossy.

Seriously, I'm surprised this was on CNET. Also I don't like the false analogy to 4K TVs. Of course there is a difference there. Also, there is still a visible difference between the 318ppi of the Nexus 4 and 415 ppi of the Nexus 5 (1080p 5-inch). With visual resolution it obviously depends on how close you're looking and/or how big is the display.
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Thad E Ginathom
post Mar 22 2014, 07:16
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QUOTE (bandpass @ Mar 21 2014, 15:17) *


Absolutely not. The xiph response didn't make any difference, and it was not the first to point out the weakness of the "HD" camp.

Surely, High-Definition Music is not even a technical term? There are sampling rates, and bit depths, but no "definition." Not a technical term, but an invention of the marketing men, pandering to those who get tingles at words like definition and resolution.

Whether it has any basis or not, the phrase now decorates the advertisements for, and the front panels of, hifi kit, whether it be for the pocket, the desktop or the hifi stack. Whether it has any basis or not, it is now part of the language.

The audiophile/marketing nexus will ensure that the game is not over: it may never be over.


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Kohlrabi
post Mar 22 2014, 07:56
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QUOTE (andy o @ Mar 22 2014, 03:16) *
Also I don't like the false analogy to 4K TVs. Of course there is a difference there. Also, there is still a visible difference between the 318ppi of the Nexus 4 and 415 ppi of the Nexus 5 (1080p 5-inch). With visual resolution it obviously depends on how close you're looking and/or how big is the display.
Like you said, the point is that with audio we are now (well, decades ago, since CDs came out decades ago) at the limits of human hearing. With video, not so much, since both refresh rate (of movies) and resolution/pixels per inch/pixels per degree are noticeably worse than what our eyes/brain can resolve. So the analogy doesn't quite fit. Both audio (at least in the consumer market) and video still have challenges with proper spatial reproduction, though I guess this should also be easier to treat for audio than video.

This post has been edited by Kohlrabi: Mar 22 2014, 09:14


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Porcus
post Mar 22 2014, 14:30
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QUOTE (AliceWonder @ Mar 21 2014, 21:24) *
If I buy a PORNO it isn't the music I care about being in high definition.


Hm, in what English dialect would that "r" make the least difference to the pronounciation? (That is "least ABX-able difference" to this forum I guess.)


Anyway, time to dig up that quote:
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/SPICE+GIRLS+...l...-a060991832


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AliceWonder
post Mar 22 2014, 15:49
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QUOTE (Thad E Ginathom @ Mar 21 2014, 23:16) *
Surely, High-Definition Music is not even a technical term? There are sampling rates, and bit depths, but no "definition." Not a technical term, but an invention of the marketing men, pandering to those who get tingles at words like definition and resolution.

Whether it has any basis or not, the phrase now decorates the advertisements for, and the front panels of, hifi kit, whether it be for the pocket, the desktop or the hifi stack. Whether it has any basis or not, it is now part of the language.


*speculative*

What I think happened, the audiophile vinyl vs CD debate had a lot of people in the vinyl camp, insisting that vinyl as a medium was inherently better. When it became clear that the sounds they actually loved so much was an artifact of the vinyl and not a superiority of analog vs digital, it was hard for them to save face, they had to continue to insist vinyl was superior, moving to digital wasn't something they could do and save face.

High definition audio gives them an opportunity to embrace digital and save face, because they continue to claim that vinyl was better than CD but that high definition captures the "warmth, air, richness" that they have long spouted CD lacks.

This is evidenced by statements such as "I haven't heard music this good since vinyl" (quoted earlier in this thread)

so-called HD audio gives them an opportunity to move to digital while still saving face and continue claiming their claims about vinyl > CD had merit.

HD audio is about feeding/preserving audiophile pride.

In my opinion.

This post has been edited by AliceWonder: Mar 22 2014, 15:49
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Wombat
post Mar 22 2014, 17:26
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QUOTE (Kohlrabi @ Mar 22 2014, 07:56) *
Like you said, the point is that with audio we are now (well, decades ago, since CDs came out decades ago) at the limits of human hearing. With video, not so much, since both refresh rate (of movies) and resolution/pixels per inch/pixels per degree are noticeably worse than what our eyes/brain can resolve. So the analogy doesn't quite fit. Both audio (at least in the consumer market) and video still have challenges with proper spatial reproduction, though I guess this should also be easier to treat for audio than video.

With video you also can make the screens bigger and bigger until every pixel gets visible. With audio you can't play back louder and louder to hear more bits because with dithered 16bit the human ear is pretty much maxed out already. No pointless noisefloor listening of course.
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includemeout
post Mar 22 2014, 19:08
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QUOTE (AliceWonder @ Mar 22 2014, 11:49) *
High definition audio gives them an opportunity to embrace digital and save face, because they continue to claim that vinyl was better than CD but that high definition captures the "warmth, air, richness" that they have long spouted CD lacks.

Interesting theory. If anything, it shows how shoddy audiophools' reasons to back up their vague & subjective claims are.


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andy o
post Mar 22 2014, 19:44
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I think the visual comparison would be apt if they were advertising ultraviolet and x-ray capable tv's. What's a little cancer when you can see all those awesome high frequencies. Watch TV naked and get a nice tan!

Actually something similar did happen when DSLR manufacturers started advertising 14-bit ADCs up from the usual 12. People started seeing "smoother gradients" all over, while actual engineers were only finding noise in those extra 2 bits.
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andy o
post Mar 22 2014, 19:47
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BTW, this topic made this week's Skeptic's Guide http://www.theskepticsguide.org/podcast/sgu/454 They mention (and base the segment) primarily on Monty's now page at xiph.org.
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Mach-X
post Mar 22 2014, 20:05
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QUOTE (Porcus @ Mar 22 2014, 08:30) *
QUOTE (AliceWonder @ Mar 21 2014, 21:24) *
If I buy a PORNO it isn't the music I care about being in high definition.


Hm, in what English dialect would that "r" make the least difference to the pronounciation? (That is "least ABX-able difference" to this forum I guess.)


Anyway, time to dig up that quote:
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/SPICE+GIRLS+...l...-a060991832

Was just thinking about that...would it be Boston? Pronounced "PAH-noh" either way?
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