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Topic: Why do people use AVRs for stereo? (Read 30890 times) previous topic - next topic
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Why do people use AVRs for stereo?

You can't really compare AVR vs Stereo, to me it's unfair as an avr is a processor even in pure direct its simply too busy with too much going on. (5-11 power amps) lift the lid on any decent stereo amp and if will find very little going on. (Less is more) well shielded. On the other end on the spectrum a stereo amp can't do multi channel, period!

So yeah avr's do stereo well, and if you are on a budget it's perfect! But if you have spare cash you will certainly benefit with a separate stereo amp.

Why do people use AVRs for stereo?

Reply #1 –
Nope, many modern (modestly priced) AVRs are audibly indistinguishable from state-of-the-art, price-no-object stereo receivers (or for that matter stereo preamps paired with 2ch power amps), at least when driving most conventional speakers, even extremely expensive ones, as long as you stay within the power constrains of the amps.

I believe I am the first person on the internet to have pointed out that on at least some Audyssey based AVRs attempting to completely disengage all manifestations of room correction (to use it as a pure, strictly plain stereo preamp/receiver) is easier said than done, because even after engaging "Pure Direct " mode and turning Audyssey "Off" there is still  phase "distance" correction going on [for the digital inputs, not analog], so not just some, but rather the majority of owners [and magazine reviewers] haven't truly been listening to their units in true, unadulterated stereo mode. This means any differences they hear are most likely due to the phase error between the L and R speakers, not "the built in preamp sound".

Why do people use AVRs for stereo?

Reply #2 –
Quote from: Yahzi on
So yeah avr's do stereo well, and if you are on a budget it's perfect! But if you have spare cash you will certainly benefit with a separate stereo amp.



Prove it.  With measurements or controlled listening tests.

Why do people use AVRs for stereo?

Reply #3 –
Quote from: mzil on
Nope, many modern modestly priced AVRs are audibly indistinguishable from state-of-the-art, price-no-object stereo receivers (or for that matter stereo preamps paired with 2ch power amps), at least when driving most conventional speakers, even extremely expensive ones, as long as you stay within the power constrains of the amps.

I believe I am the first person on the internet to have pointed out that on at least some Audyssey based AVRs attempting to completely disengage all manifestations of room correction, to use it as a pure, strictly plain stereo preamp/receiver is easier said than done, because even after engaging "pure direct " mode and turning Audyssey "off" there is still some phase "distance" correction going on, so not just some, but rather the majority of owners [and magazine reviewers] haven't truly been listening to their units in true, unadulterated stereo mode. This means any differences they hear are mostly likely due to the phase error between the L and R speakers, not "the built in preamp sound".


So what if you never do an EQ caibration?  How can it do a 'phase' correction if you never give it any speaker distance input?

If calibration/room EQ always causes default phase correction, the way to hear 'pure stereo' would be to do a factory reset on the AVR.

Why do people use AVRs for stereo?

Reply #4 –
Yes, in factory default/reset mode, and before ever having run a room measurement, the units are phase correct. There's no mention in the manual that's the only way to listen to unadultered stereo through the digital inputs on these units though, so hardly anyone beyond you and me would know about the need to do this.

Why do people use AVRs for stereo?

Reply #5 –
Quote from: mzil on
Yes, in factory default mode, and before ever having run a room measurement, the units are phase correct. There's no mention that's the only way to listen to unadultered stereo through the digital inputs on these units though, so hardly anyone beyond you and me would know about this.


And if you wanted to listen to unadultered stereo using the analog inputs? Are you saying the distance issue won't affect the sound?

Why do people use AVRs for stereo?

Reply #6 –
At least on the unit I tested, a Marantz AV7005 prepro, selecting "Pure Direct" truly did what you would think it should, for the analog inputs only: no room correction of any kind. In fact I'm pretty sure in this mode the analog inputs don't even get digitized at all, so the phase correction circuitry, etc., is completely out of the loop anyways.

Why do people use AVRs for stereo?

Reply #7 –
Quote from: Yahzi on
So yeah avr's do stereo well, and if you are on a budget it's perfect! But if you have spare cash you will certainly benefit with a separate stereo amp.


Again, prove it. Show me, with evidence, that you can tell the difference.

Why do people use AVRs for stereo?

Reply #8 –
It just appears that AVRs are the jack of all trades and the master of none. All those switches, and features, will degrade the sound quality. Stereo amps are designed for music purposes and AVRs are designed for movies. How can anyone see it any other way?

Why do people use AVRs for stereo?

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Yahzi on
It just appears that AVRs are the jack of all trades and the master of none. All those switches, and features, will degrade the sound quality. Stereo amps are designed for music purposes and AVRs are designed for movies. How can anyone see it any other way?

You keep on making these statements without anything to back them up. If all of those "switches and features" are implemented digitally then they do not inherently degrade the sound quality. You could as easily say that photo processing software that has too many features will result in poorer quality photos than one that implements only a few basic operations.

Why do people use AVRs for stereo?

Reply #10 –
Quote from: Yahzi on
All those switches, and features, will degrade the sound quality.


Do you have any blind listening tests to prove this? Otherwise you will find more friends over at the stereophile forums where they love such baseless speculation. Just because there are "switches , and features" doesn't mean they are active or affecting sound in any audible way when in two channel mode.

Why do people use AVRs for stereo?

Reply #11 –
Quote
Why do people use AVRs for stereo?

- They are cheaper
- Almost all have digital inputs like Optical and HDMI

Quote
All those switches, and features, will degrade the sound quality.

Those DSP effects can be turned off.

Why do people use AVRs for stereo?

Reply #12 –
Quote from: Yahzi on
All those switches, and features, will degrade the sound quality.


So you are saying that my multi-channel receiver is degrading the sound quality of the 2.0, 16-bit 44.1KHz digital audio source (from HDMI) I'm feeding it even when operating in straight stereo mode without applying Dolby Pro Logic or DTS effects?  I somehow find that hard to believe and I don't see how having those options (which are turned off) or being able to output to 7.1 channels changes stereo output especially when it's receiving a digital source and playing it without resampling (i.e. it's playing it at 16-bit and 44.1KHz, the same as the lossless, digital source).

Why do people use AVRs for stereo?

Reply #14 –
Quote from: Yahzi on
All those switches, and features, will degrade the sound quality.


Evidence? Proof? It doesn't matter whether they can be turned off. You have so far provided no evidence as to whether anyone can tell the difference with them on or off.

Saying something you think is true doesn't make it true.

Why do people use AVRs for stereo?

Reply #15 –
Quote from: Yahzi on
You can't really compare AVR vs Stereo, to me it's unfair as an avr is a processor even in pure direct its simply too busy with too much going on.


Sure you can: A few years ago while I was still in my Audiophile phase, I would have poo-poohed the idea, but it's true: If noise and distortion are low, and frequency response is flat, a plastic and stamped-metal AVR actually does sound pretty much the same as any reasonably accurate separate components regardless of price.

It doesn't seem to really matter how many opamps or A-D and D-A conversions the signal passes through as long as the above remains true. When comparing components, the trick is precise level-matching! When levels are precisely matched, it's amazing how many "obvious" sonic differences simply disappear.

For grins, I once installed a new Harman Kardon AVR into my main system, replacing a Goldpoint stepped attenuator and my 300B single ended tube amps. After setting up the two channels to run full-range with no attempt at room correction, I thought it sounded pretty much the same as the tweaked-out system, and it made me wonder why I was spending $400 every few years for a new set of 300B tubes. To their credit, those tube amps did a beautiful 1 kHz square wave, at least into a simple resistor.

If you enjoy owning high-end electronics for their own sake, that's fine. But I'm starting to enjoy bargain-hunting, and getting top-notch sound without spending a lot of money has become an enjoyable challenge in it's own right.

Why do people use AVRs for stereo?

Reply #16 –
Quote from: Yahzi on
It just appears that AVRs are the jack of all trades and the master of none. All those switches, and features, will degrade the sound quality. Stereo amps are designed for music purposes and AVRs are designed for movies. How can anyone see it any other way?

This is a very common myth which is so pervasive that the high end companies like Krell have even invented a dedicated (and absurd) feature to cater to this very paranoia: "HT Bypass" or a "Home Theater Bypass" button. Have you all heard about this silly feature? In a nutshell it is an A/B switch built in to a highend stereo preamp which allows an outboard prepro or AVR with preouts to piggyback on top of the stereo preamp, so as to use the same feed to the front speaker's power amp. See, this feature "saves you money" since you don't have to buy a (complete) secondary system just for music! [Oh brother]

As their mythology goes, even if you select "Pure Direct", tone control bypass, room correction off, all DSP off, etc., the lowly AVR's input selector and gain control is still ruining your basic, 2ch stereo sources, so the solution is to buy a secondary stereo preamp (just for those pristine 2ch sources) where you won't be using any of that other junk anyways.

 [I've always wondered if some vendor had an excess of older preamps on hand with "tape monitor loop" buttons and thought up this clever way to repurpose/remarket them (even though the "tape out" half of it isn't being utilized).  ]

You've heard of (passive) buy bi-amping and bi-wiring? Well this is "bi-preamping". Why sell the consumer only one device when they can easily be talked into two for twice the price?

Why do people use AVRs for stereo?

Reply #17 –
Is there any reason why you have so much trouble believing that AVRs are actually good at stereo? Since you already started a topic "Why do people use AVRs for stereo?" I'll presume you're having a real hard time believing it.

Why do people use AVRs for stereo?

Reply #18 –
Quote from: probedb on
Is there any reason why you have so much trouble believing that AVRs are actually good at stereo? Since you already started a topic "Why do people use AVRs for stereo?" I'll presume you're having a real hard time believing it.


I guess because that's why stereo amps exist, to handle only stereo, whereas AVRs must do so many different things. At some point you have to sacrifice quality for quantity.

People who enjoy listening to music generally don't buy AVRs for their dedicated stereo systems. They have two-channel amplifiers designed for the task. So I think it's a perfectly valid concern that AVRS are not equipped to handle stereo as well as a competently designed stereo amp can.

AVRs are a jack of all trades kind of thing. Good at many things, but not necessarily great at any one thing.

Quote
How do you know it's distortion and not noise?


If the THD+N is lower, I assume the noise and distortion is lower. If the Marantz has a lower THD+N, isn't that what it means?

Why do people use AVRs for stereo?

Reply #19 –
Quote from: Yahzi on
People who enjoy listening to music generally don't buy AVRs for their dedicated stereo systems.


I can see you'll never accept it. My main system is an AVR, it gets used for movies and music. Music far more. I have no reason to purchase a separate stereo amp.

Why do people use AVRs for stereo?

Reply #20 –
I think that you either associate AVR with "home theater 5.1", or you simply don't understand that there are $4000+ AVRs:

Just as an example (This one is actually selling for 4500€ in Spain, which accounts for nearly $6000 ):

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/nad-t-787-av-receiver

And of course stereo amplifiers exists, just like power amplifiers exists: To be used where they are supposed to be used, (that, aside of the fact that obviously, 5.1 equipment was invented later).


You know, your argument is as weak as arguing that one has to buy stereo soundcards, because 5.1 and 7.1 are inherently worse.

Why do people use AVRs for stereo?

Reply #21 –
Quote from: [JAZ] on

I think that you either associate AVR with "home theater 5.1", or you simply don't understand that there are $4000+ AVRs:

Just as an example (This one is actually selling for 4500€ in Spain, which accounts for nearly $6000 ):

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/nad-t-787-av-receiver

And of course stereo amplifiers exists, just like power amplifiers exists: To be used where they are supposed to be used, (that, aside of the fact that obviously, 5.1 equipment was invented later).


You know, your argument is as weak as arguing that one has to buy stereo soundcards, because 5.1 and 7.1 are inherently worse.


But your argument is also weak. You're just saying, 'accept that AVRs have similar sound quality as dedicated stereo amps'. Why would an AVR sound as good for stereo as a dedicated stereo amp designed for that job?

Have you ever heard of the saying, jack of all trades and master of none? AVRs are designed to do everything these days, short of making tea. Is it really so difficult to accept that a dedicated two-channel amp would not offer superior music performance than a 'one box does all' jobbie?

I don't know, it sounds like an unreasonable position to hold. Why don't all people just run out and buy AVRS for their dedicated two channel set ups? It's the most ludicrous thing I've heard.

Why even make two-channel amplifiers? Just make AVRs that can do everything perfectly, as you seem to be insinuating, and be done with it?

Why do people use AVRs for stereo?

Reply #22 –
No.

The "jack of all trades" is your interpretation of what an AVR is.


Integrated amplifiers are not a new thing. In fact, it has been the usual way to have a hifi equipment at home. The difference is that then, they just switched between radio, phone phono, tape deck..., and now, they integrate more inputs and several other processors to do more things. They are especially relevant nowadays due to HDMI audio/video and  digital audio.

What matters is how they are designed and which components do they use, and that's why i posted just an expensive one.
I didn't really care to look at the features, but once I've read about it, the video part is just a pass-through, the DSP part is minimal and instead it is focused on the audio components (it has even an all-analog pass-through). A power amp can be cheaper, or more powerful at the same cost? Sure. But that is not what you are implying with your argument.

Why do people use AVRs for stereo?

Reply #23 –
Quote from: [JAZ] on
No.

The "jack of all trades" is your interpretation of what an AVR is.


Integrated amplifiers are not a new thing. In fact, it has been the usual way to have a hifi equipment at home. The difference is that then, they just switched between radio, phone phono, tape deck..., and now, they integrate more inputs and several other processors to do more things. They are especially relevant nowadays due to HDMI audio/video and  digital audio.

What matters is how they are designed and which components do they use, and that's why i posted just an expensive one.
I didn't really care to look at the features, but once I've read about it, the video part is just a pass-through, the DSP part is minimal and instead it is focused on the audio components (it has even an all-analog pass-through). A power amp can be cheaper, or more powerful at the same cost? Sure. But that is not what you are implying with your argument.

If you scour the internet and read what people post, you'll find the overwhelming majority of people online are disappointed with their AVRs if used in a purely two channel role compared to dedicated stereo equipment.

I don't know, perhaps some people here are biased not to hear differences or have negative expectation bias and then draw the conclusion that because they couldn't hear the difference that AVRs are magically the best solution for everything.

Why do people use AVRs for stereo?

Reply #24 –
Quote from: Yahzi on
Why would an AVR sound as good for stereo as a dedicated stereo amp designed for that job?

Why wouldn't it? It's not terribly difficult to make a good amplifier, is it?

Quote from: Yahzi on
If you scour the internet and read what people post, you'll find the overwhelming majority of people online are disappointed with their AVRs if used in a purely two channel role compared to dedicated stereo equipment.

If I scour the internet I can find a great many things. However, when I find opinions, they are often biased. That's why I read Hydrogenaudio.

Really, there is no reason why an AVR can't have a decent set of amplifiers sections built-in.
Music: sounds arranged such that they construct feelings.