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xiph (aka vorbis) tag question, Tracks with sub-sections
AliceWonder
post Mar 7 2014, 05:10
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Hello,

Take an album like Caress of Steel - where two of the tracks (The Necromancer and The Fountain of Lamneth) are very long and have names for parts of the track.

What is the best way with the xiph

KEY=Value

format to tag those tracks? It would be nice if players could understand what part of the track is playing but that might be asking too much.

Anyway thanks for suggestions.
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eahm
post Mar 7 2014, 08:22
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Xiph (Xiph.Org Foundation) is the company that created Vorbis. Xiph IS NOT Vorbis, not AKA.

Also, I didn't understand anything/what you need.

This post has been edited by eahm: Mar 7 2014, 08:22


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kode54
post Mar 7 2014, 08:52
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I think he wants chapter tagging for subsections of really long tracks.

Technically, the way that would be handled is splitting the track up into sections, encoding them separately (and making sure each separate file has a unique serial number), and concatenating the resulting files. Smart players will either play the files as-is, or display the segments as separate playlist entries and allow separate tagging. This is known as Ogg chaining.
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AliceWonder
post Mar 7 2014, 08:54
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QUOTE (eahm @ Mar 6 2014, 23:22) *
Xiph (Xiph.Org Foundation) is the company that created Vorbis. Xiph IS NOT Vorbis, not AKA.

Also, I didn't understand anything/what you need.


xiph tags are often called vorbis tags, even though they are also used with many other formats.
That's what I meant by aka vorbis tags.

What I mean is -

The Necromancer - 1 track. That track has several labeled sections but it is still one track.

What I see a lot is

CODE
TRACK=The Necromancer: I. Into the Darkness / II. Under the Shadow / III. Return of the Prince


But that does not provide the information for how long each section is or where they begin. I am hoping there is an ad-hoc standard in use for how to tag it better, e.g.

CODE
TRACK=The Necromancer
SUBTRACK=Into the Darkness|||0:00|||4:12
SUBTRACK=Under The Shadow|||4:12|||4:25
SUBTRACK=Return Of The Prince|||8:37|||3:51


or something like that (in above it is Part Name|||start position|||part length).

I believe the start position is in the cue sheet information on some CDs that do this, even though they don't start a new track. I'll have to check but I seem to remember it being there on 2112 for example.

This post has been edited by AliceWonder: Mar 7 2014, 08:56
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slks
post Mar 8 2014, 11:37
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For many tagging situations there is no standard, and this is one of those situations.

The problem with many ways of doing this is that the more precise/advanced/correct your solution is, the less likely it is to be supported by the software you're using. I've never tried to implement Ogg chaining or a 'subtrack' tag, but I'm willing to bet none of the software you use supports either of them.

For a couple of situations where I thought the choice to mash each musical section into the same track on CD was a bad idea, I have went to an audio editor and actually separated the tracks and tagged each of them. However, when the tracks are set up this way it's usually intended to listen to the entire piece in one sitting. With that in mind I usually leave the tracks as-is. In this situation I would personally tag the track as "The Necromancer, Parts IóIII" and include the name of each subsection in the comment field.


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ChronoSphere
post Mar 8 2014, 12:55
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QUOTE (AliceWonder @ Mar 7 2014, 08:54) *
I believe the start position is in the cue sheet information on some CDs that do this, even though they don't start a new track. I'll have to check but I seem to remember it being there on 2112 for example.
That's how I'd probably do it, just create a "fake" cuesheet and embed it. Loading such a file with e.g. foobar would result in 3 tracks added to the playlist. Non-cuesheet capable players will just load one track.
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AliceWonder
post Mar 12 2014, 14:05
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https://wiki.xiph.org/Chapter_Extension

looks like it might be what I want.
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kode54
post Mar 13 2014, 01:36
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QUOTE (ChronoSphere @ Mar 8 2014, 03:55) *
QUOTE (AliceWonder @ Mar 7 2014, 08:54) *
I believe the start position is in the cue sheet information on some CDs that do this, even though they don't start a new track. I'll have to check but I seem to remember it being there on 2112 for example.
That's how I'd probably do it, just create a "fake" cuesheet and embed it. Loading such a file with e.g. foobar would result in 3 tracks added to the playlist. Non-cuesheet capable players will just load one track.

It would also result in the three tracks having the tracknumber tags of 1, 2, and 3.
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eahm
post Mar 13 2014, 05:52
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QUOTE (AliceWonder @ Mar 7 2014, 00:54) *
xiph tags are often called vorbis tags, even though they are also used with many other formats.
That's what I meant by aka vorbis tags.

Sorry I never heard of Xiph tag, always and only Vorbis comment/tag.


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lithopsian
post Mar 13 2014, 13:40
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Vorbis comment is an unfortunate name since they are also used by other codecs in Ogg containers, but Vorbis was the first. However, they aren't called Xiph tags and never have been. Hopefully never will be.

Ogg chaining might be one way to do this, but most music players just treat chained files as separate tracks, looking and behaving no different from tracks in separate files.
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AliceWonder
post Mar 13 2014, 14:18
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I've seen them referred to as xiph comments in numerous places, though that doesn't make it official, it seems xiph.org does not do that.
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2Bdecided
post Mar 13 2014, 18:29
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Whatever the "proper" solution, you'll have to use whatever works with your players. I'd go for separate tracks, or a cuesheet.

As for messing up the track numbers when splitting one track into several: you can have fractional track numbers, e.g. 1.1, 1.2, 1.3. This won't work with everything, and is a bad idea in various ways, but it might work for you. You can always have several of the same track number too, with different drawbacks.

Cheers,
David.
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Antonski
post Mar 25 2014, 21:08
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QUOTE (AliceWonder @ Mar 12 2014, 15:05) *
https://wiki.xiph.org/Chapter_Extension

looks like it might be what I want.


Yes, exactly, however it is still not (fully) adopted by the main players.
Last time I've checked (few months ago), VLC was able to read these chapter tags, but not to skip the the next part(s).
BTW, I also needed such solution for 2112, but finally I decided to use Musepack, because the format supports chapters natively and they are displayed exactly as I want in MusicBee, also in Foobar (although FB does not support chapter numbers alongside with track number).

Edit:
I have to correct myself. I've just tried the last VLC nightly build v2.2.0 and it appeared, that it can jump to the next/previous chapter in vorbis and opus, but I didn't find a convenient way do display them and to choose an arbitrary chapter.

This post has been edited by Antonski: Mar 25 2014, 21:25
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db1989
post Mar 25 2014, 22:27
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QUOTE (lithopsian @ Mar 13 2014, 12:40) *
Vorbis comment is an unfortunate name since they are also used by other codecs in Ogg containers, but Vorbis was the first.
Hence the name.

e: removing second bit proving I’m an idiot

This post has been edited by db1989: Mar 25 2014, 22:33
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lithopsian
post Mar 25 2014, 22:31
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QUOTE (db1989 @ Mar 25 2014, 22:27) *
QUOTE
However, they aren't called Xiph tags and never have been. Hopefully never will be.
BUZZ! Try again. https://wiki.xiph.org/VorbisComment

Not sure what your point is. If I find a page on google.com about Vorbis Comment tags, that doesn't make them called Google tags.
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db1989
post Mar 25 2014, 22:32
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Yeah, sorry, Iím an idiot! Despite that you were totally correct, I got abysmally mixed up and read your comment as saying they werenít called Vorbis tags. Oh, the shame! Sorry. smile.gif
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BenB
post Mar 25 2014, 23:32
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My solution to OP's question is to create an lrc file that displays which part of the composition is currently playing in a lyrics viewer. I got the idea for it after reading in the id3 tagging standard that this is one of the purposes for the synchronized lyrics frame.

EDIT: added link to id3v2.3 for referencing

This post has been edited by BenB: Mar 25 2014, 23:39
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lithopsian
post Mar 26 2014, 00:06
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QUOTE (db1989 @ Mar 25 2014, 22:32) *
Yeah, sorry, Iím an idiot! Despite that you were totally correct, I got abysmally mixed up and read your comment as saying they werenít called Vorbis tags. Oh, the shame! Sorry. smile.gif

No problem. Sometimes I write rubbish wink.gif Best to be sure so anyone who reads it later isn't confused.
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MostlyHarmless
post Mar 27 2014, 12:58
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QUOTE (BenB @ Mar 26 2014, 00:32) *
My solution to OP's question is to create an lrc file that displays which part of the composition is currently playing in a lyrics viewer. I got the idea for it after reading in the id3 tagging standard that this is one of the purposes for the synchronized lyrics frame.


Using synchrpnized lyrycs as an universal workaround (for all formats) as long as the player supports thos feature.
It has some limitations, though, as usual with most workarounds.
- subtracks will not be visible in library organizer
- subtracks cannot be included in playlists sepatately
- subtracks cannot be transcoded separately or separated during transcoding smile.gif

Maybe more...


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