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TAK(ing) with EAC, What settings to create TAKs with EAC?
rds_correia
post Apr 30 2007, 00:28
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Hi there smile.gif,
I am a happy EAC user for many time and I have always used it with either FLAC or Monkey.
But things are changing now.
It's time to start using TAK instead of the other 2 encoders.
But even if I have been using these tools for quite some time, I am afraid that I don't know what settings should I setup in EAC when it comes to 'compression options'.
Should I set it up for:
- use external program for compression
- user defined encoder
- path= C:\...\TAK\takc.exe
- additional command line options= -e -p4 %s %d (just like with foobar?)
These are the settings that I've been using and I don't really know if they're right or wrong but apparently they seem to be working more or less properly.
And I said more or less because this way EAC doesn't tag my TAKs with APEv2 tags.
Are there any threads containing specific instructions on how to setup EAC for outputting TAK files?
TIA and sorry if I posted this in the wrong forum.
Cheers
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kanak
post Apr 30 2007, 02:48
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At present you need 3rd party tools to do the tagging.

This post has been edited by kanak: Apr 30 2007, 03:08
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HisInfernalMajes...
post Apr 30 2007, 03:04
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Use wapet to tag TAK files. You should be able to use this command string with wapet:

CODE
%d -t "Artist=%a" -t "Title=%t" -t "Album=%g" -t "Year=%y" -t "Track=%n" -t "Genre=%m" takc.exe -e -p4 %s %d


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rds_correia
post Apr 30 2007, 03:10
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Thanks for the quick reply kanak :-).
I see that there is still no way of getting my TAKs properly tagged when ripping with EAC.
If using Foobar will do the trick then that's fine.
Now, about the command line options that I mentioned, '-e -p4 %s %d'.
Are those okay?
Am I doing the right thing?
Am I supposed to call takc.exe or tak.exe?
Thanks in advance ;-)

QUOTE (HisInfernalMajesty @ Apr 30 2007, 03:04) *
Use wapet to tag TAK files. You should be able to use this command string with wapet:

CODE
%d -t "Artist=%a" -t "Title=%t" -t "Album=%g" -t "Year=%y" -t "Track=%n" -t "Genre=%m" takc.exe -e -p4 %s %d

Wow!
Thanks majesty!
I will try wapet although I don't have the slightest clue about that tool.
Hope it is easier to use than REACT.
Otherwise you'll have to give this n00b a hand again, ok?
Cheers
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HisInfernalMajes...
post Apr 30 2007, 03:51
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You're very welcome happy.gif

And it's quite easy to use.

Download it from here and put it in in the same folder as your tak encoder then point EAC to wapet.exe. Keep the file extension the same and use the command line options I listed above and it should all work.


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rds_correia
post Apr 30 2007, 21:41
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Just finished a test encode with GN'R-Appetite for Destruction and it worked perfectly.
All I can say is a big 'thank you' to you guys for the tips you gave me smile.gif.
Cheers
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aeroman
post May 1 2007, 01:28
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idem, thanks HisInfernalMajesty smile.gif
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Synthetic Soul
post May 1 2007, 08:00
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If I get time today I'll create an EAC guide in the wiki - I'm surprised no-one else has done it already.

As per my previous post, the easiest way is to copy the Monkey's Audio guide and change a few lines.


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greynol
post May 1 2007, 09:31
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I'm curious to know why the wiki has decided to either pick the slowest setting or the fastest setting with nothing in between, not to mention any explanation as to how to choose something in between!

Based on Synthetic Soul's figures, http://www.synthetic-soul.co.uk/comparison/lossless/, there are other TAK settings which deserve to be noted.

TAK -p1 delivers superior compression to any WavPack setting, for instance, and at speeds that WavPack can only beat when compressing at its fastest setting but also having to give up 2.5 percent in compression which is pretty significant considering how close the various lossless encoders compress.

I personally find TAK's default the most attractive setting. At compression levels close to MAC High (<0.4% difference), it is able to encode more quickly. Compare this with the WIKI's recommendation of -p4m where TAK is virtually the same as MAC High but encodes at only a fifth of the speed. Sure it decodes two and a half times faster than MAC High, but TAK's default decodes well over three times faster! With over a six-fold increase in encoding speed at the expense of a mere 0.35% hit in compression, TAK Normal ought to be recommended over TAK Extra Max.

Sure -p4m delivers the best compression of all the documented command line settings, but is this really what HA should be recommending?

I'm mentioning this here hoping that whatever goes in the EAC guide might influence the TAK guide, rather than it being the other way around.

This post has been edited by greynol: May 1 2007, 10:24


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Synthetic Soul
post May 1 2007, 09:41
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QUOTE (greynol @ May 1 2007, 09:31) *
I'm curious to know why the wiki has decided to either pick the slowest setting or the fastest setting with nothing in between, not to mention any explanation as to how to choose something in between!
smile.gif I had the same thought this morning, when I looked at the TAK page.

I'm not sure of the resolve as yet, but I agree that Normal is far more appealing. Maybe I'll have a little table with some key settings from my guide (as that is the only source I am familiar with!). Dunno, I'll give it some thought when I have time.


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greynol
post May 1 2007, 10:07
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Here are just a few numbers to look at:

Encoding Speed:
CODE
Encoder       Comp.      Enc    Dec
FLAC -0       70.674%    121    131
TAK Turbo     64.929%    104    118
WavPack -f    66.741%     68     92
TAK Fast      64.145%     66    112

Compression:
CODE
Encoder              Comp.      Enc    Dec
Monkey's Audio High  63.507%     36     34
TAK Extra Max        63.527%      7     87
TAK Extra            63.585%     19     87
TAK High             63.684%     28     96
TAK Normal           63.875%     45    109
TAK Fast             64.145%     66    112
WavPack -hhx3        64.378%      4     54
FLAC -8              65.463%     18    112


This post has been edited by greynol: May 1 2007, 10:17


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Synthetic Soul
post May 1 2007, 11:40
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I've created the initial version.

I definately think that the recommended settings could be looked at, but I think it is more fitting for the TAK page than the new EAC guide. Once done the guide can point to the TAK page for further guidance on the switch to use.

I don't have time to ponder at the moment, but perhaps we could use this thread to suggest a good table of switches that cover a few situations. I find graphs are a good way of spotting the optimum settings (The LAME and FLAC graphs spring to mind). Maybe I'll try to produce one from my figures.

Edit: FYI: Written before I read greynol's post above. I really should refresh my tabs!

This post has been edited by Synthetic Soul: May 1 2007, 11:41


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Synthetic Soul
post May 1 2007, 12:38
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Here is a chart



I've yet to work out what I'm supposed to be looking for!

From initial thoughts it appears to me that Normal Max is optimal for decooding, Fast for encoding, and Normal does look like a good compromise between the two.


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rds_correia
post May 1 2007, 13:39
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Wonderful discussion smile.gif.
I love when one of my posts derives like this to a new level where more important things are discussed.
BTW, although I have found wapet to be a good buddy of mine, I just can't get REACT2 off my head...
Is it possible to use REACT2 just like wapet to get my newly TAKs tagged with APEv2 tags?
Cheers smile.gif
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Synthetic Soul
post May 1 2007, 14:30
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Yes, you could edit the config file to run takc.exe to encode, and then run tag.exe to tag the .tak file, or even continue to use wapet.exe to execute takc.exe and then tag.

In essence, yes - if you are happy editing the config file - using either takc.exe and tag.exe or wapet.exe with takc.exe.

Wow, I really confused that one... crying.gif

This post has been edited by Synthetic Soul: May 1 2007, 14:31


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rds_correia
post May 1 2007, 16:45
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lol, yeah, it was a bit confusing but I think I understood it correctly.
But can you explain in more detail, errmm, in a more step-by-step way how to accomplish it using REACT2?
Maybe you could even add it to the wiki as 'EAC and TAK alt.' or something smile.gif.
At the end of the day I'm just very curious to know how to handle it with REACT2 and be able to compare it to wapet and choose the best middle-ware for this task.
And of course, as always I am a big pain in the butt by asking many questions lool.
Cheers
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cbrigstocke
post May 1 2007, 19:51
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For those looking to make images with embedded cuesheets using wapet, this is what I use for 'additional command line options:'

%d -f "cuesheet=%a - %g.cue" "C:\Program Files\Encoders\Takc.exe" -e -p3m %s %d

There a couple of things to be wary of. Make certain that the path to Takc.exe is correct. The wapet.exe file that EAC is using must be in the same directory that you are creating the image in. Also, when saving the compressed image, make sure that the .wav extension is erased. (EAC defaults with .wav for some reason.) Again also choose your own encoding strength. p3m just happens to be what I gravitate towards.
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Synthetic Soul
post May 1 2007, 20:07
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QUOTE (cbrigstocke @ May 1 2007, 19:51) *
For those looking to make images with embedded cuesheets using wapet, this is what I use for 'additional command line options:'

%d -f "cuesheet=%a - %g.cue" "C:\Program Files\Encoders\Takc.exe" -e -p3m %s %d

There a couple of things to be wary of. Make certain that the path to Takc.exe is correct. The wapet.exe file that EAC is using must be in the same directory that you are creating the image in. Also, when saving the compressed image, make sure that the .wav extension is erased. (EAC defaults with .wav for some reason.) Again also choose your own encoding strength. p3m just happens to be what I gravitate towards.
Some good advice.

A couple of points:
  1. To use the -f switch you will need to use my build of Wapet.
  2. wapet.exe needs to be in the same folder as the cuesheet due to the filename only being provided.
  3. If this is too restrictive, REACT makes it very easy to embed the cuesheet (and EAC log).


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TBeck
post May 1 2007, 20:15
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QUOTE (rds_correia @ Apr 30 2007, 00:28) *
Are there any threads containing specific instructions on how to setup EAC for outputting TAK files?
TIA and sorry if I posted this in the wrong forum.

Thanks for asking this very interesting (for me too) question and many thanks to everyone for answering!

Honestly i don't know nothing about EAC's usage. Now i am very lightened to hear, that there is a way to overcome TAK's current lack of command line options for tagging.

QUOTE (greynol @ May 1 2007, 09:31) *
I'm curious to know why the wiki has decided to either pick the slowest setting or the fastest setting with nothing in between, not to mention any explanation as to how to choose something in between!

Thank you very much for pointing at this! Speed surely is TAK's most important feature, and people using only the a bit insane -pxm switches (because they have been told to do so) will probably never understand, what makes TAK something special.

QUOTE (Synthetic Soul @ May 1 2007, 09:41) *
QUOTE (greynol @ May 1 2007, 09:31) *
I'm curious to know why the wiki has decided to either pick the slowest setting or the fastest setting with nothing in between, not to mention any explanation as to how to choose something in between!
smile.gif I had the same thought this morning, when I looked at the TAK page.

I'm not sure of the resolve as yet, but I agree that Normal is far more appealing. Maybe I'll have a little table with some key settings from my guide (as that is the only source I am familiar with!). Dunno, I'll give it some thought when I have time.

And again, special thanks to you for all your support!
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Automator
post May 1 2007, 20:16
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Hi guys,

I have a noob question: is there any way to get wapet to stop popping open status windows? I'm using Synthetic Soul's wapet, with HisInfernalMajesty's external compressor command line above. I also have "tools/do not open external compressor window" checked in EAC.

Unfortunately, wapet (or takc?) keeps popping open status windows to show me how far it has compressed the current file. This makes the computer unusable, as I have to swat away those @#$%^ status windows every couple of seconds. mad.gif

Is there a command line switch that I'm missing? This is the only thing that's stopping from ripping all my discs into TAK instead of FLAC.

Thanks in advance!
Tim
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Synthetic Soul
post May 1 2007, 22:34
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QUOTE (Automator @ May 1 2007, 20:16) *
Is there a command line switch that I'm missing? This is the only thing that's stopping from ripping all my discs into TAK instead of FLAC.
This is a product of using wapet (I can only assume). EAC is surpressing the console for wapet, but when wapet runs takc a console is (presumably) opened irrespective of the EAC checkbox.

If this is a real issue for you I can only suggest using REACT. REACT starts my console minimised, but it seems this is a REACT, and not an EAC, feature.


QUOTE (rds_correia @ May 1 2007, 16:45) *
lol, yeah, it was a bit confusing but I think I understood it correctly.
But can you explain in more detail, errmm, in a more step-by-step way how to accomplish it using REACT2?
Maybe you could even add it to the wiki as 'EAC and TAK alt.' or something smile.gif .
I will try to create a REACT wiki page to tackle this. I have not yet seen anyone post how to add new formats to the REACT INI and CFG, so I think it could be useful to document an approach. It may take a day or two though... I'm spending too much time here at HA at the moment...


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jcoalson
post May 1 2007, 22:47
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QUOTE (TBeck @ May 1 2007, 14:15) *
QUOTE (greynol @ May 1 2007, 09:31) *
I'm curious to know why the wiki has decided to either pick the slowest setting or the fastest setting with nothing in between, not to mention any explanation as to how to choose something in between!
Thank you very much for pointing at this! Speed surely is TAK's most important feature, and people using only the a bit insane -pxm switches (because they have been told to do so) will probably never understand, what makes TAK something special.

annoying isn't it? whether it makes sense or not, some people will max out on the options and then they usually complain that it's too slow. just look at the command-line someone put on the FLAC wikipedia page. and it's been that way for a while.

Josh
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Synthetic Soul
post May 1 2007, 22:59
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Registered and updated.

That's if the wiki police don't just undo it - I understand they are a bit heavy-handed there.


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kanak
post May 1 2007, 23:47
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QUOTE (jcoalson @ May 1 2007, 16:47) *
QUOTE (TBeck @ May 1 2007, 14:15) *
QUOTE (greynol @ May 1 2007, 09:31) *
I'm curious to know why the wiki has decided to either pick the slowest setting or the fastest setting with nothing in between, not to mention any explanation as to how to choose something in between!
Thank you very much for pointing at this! Speed surely is TAK's most important feature, and people using only the a bit insane -pxm switches (because they have been told to do so) will probably never understand, what makes TAK something special.

annoying isn't it? whether it makes sense or not, some people will max out on the options and then they usually complain that it's too slow. just look at the command-line someone put on the FLAC wikipedia page. and it's been that way for a while.

Josh


Uh oh. ohmy.gif

I was the one who added the two settings to wiki... i chose those two settings to ape the FLAC page which lists the fastest preset and the strongest one-- i just assumed people would pick something that's appropriate for their use.

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rds_correia
post May 1 2007, 23:58
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QUOTE (Synthetic Soul @ May 1 2007, 22:34) *
I will try to create a REACT wiki page to tackle this. I have not yet seen anyone post how to add new formats to the REACT INI and CFG, so I think it could be useful to document an approach. It may take a day or two though... I'm spending too much time here at HA at the moment...

Hya,
Take it easy Soul smile.gif.
Do it if/when you find some free time and you say to yourself 'let's help another soul or 2'.
This is not an issue because I've got it all working with wapet, and may I say that it works pretty well.
It's just that I'd like to see it working with REACT2 too, just that wink.gif.
Oh, and make sure you remember to bump this thread when you update the REACT wiki wink.gif.
Otherwise we might miss it.
Cheers
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