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Gapless MP3 CDs with Burrrn and/or Nero7, Need your help guys!
Bigger
post Aug 25 2008, 14:49
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Hi everybody!
I have installed on my PC Nero7 and Burrrn 1.14 Beta2.
My problem is: how can I burn a CD eliminating the gap between two songs?
I'm not talking about reducing the length of a CD, I need to mix the songs together as they are reproduced in the original CD (imagine a live album or a Pink Floyd record...).
Is there anyone who can help me out?
Thanks.

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timcupery
post Aug 25 2008, 16:24
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First, it sounds as if you are talking about burning an audio cd, not an mp3 CD. An mp3 CD is simply a data cd with mp3 files on it, and gaps are not relevant here as a player will just switch from playing one file to playing another file, and gaps are a function of the player settings and gapless-playback ability, not of the CD.

Traditionally, burning programs would add a 2-second gap between tracks when burning an audio CD. As I understand it, this may have been necessary a long time ago when burners were less precise. But it seems pretty stupid as a default setting, messing up live records or pink floyd albums as you mentioned.

Nowadays any burning program will have the ability to turn off 2-second gaps somewhere in its options menu. I haven't used Nero in a few years but I know a few years ago it had that option. I assume Burrrrn has the option somewhere as well.

Someone more familiar with the programs can tell you exactly where these options are.


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NightOwl
post Aug 25 2008, 19:34
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In Nero 7, select all your songs in your new Audio CD playlist. Choose Compilation Properties under the File menu (or just hit F7). Under the Audio CD tab, check "No pause between tracks" and then click OK. The Pause column for all songs except the first will now show 0:00.00 (while the first song will still have a pause of 0:02.00). Now burn your Audio CD playlist with either the Disc-at-once or Disc-at-once/96 write methods (under the Burn tab of the Burn Compilation window) -- don't use Track-at-once.

Burrrn has never added 2-second gaps for audio CDs that I have created. Burrrn does not have a similar setting to Nero 7. Is Burrrn adding 2-second gaps to your songs?
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greynol
post Aug 25 2008, 19:46
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I think he's talking about gaps introduced by the mp3 encoding process.

Provided the mp3s have information for gapless decoding and your software is able to use this information then it is possible(*). Otherwise the mp3s will need to be decoded to wave and loaded into an editor to trim the silence prior to burning making sure that they end on frame boundaries.

(*) I think Burrrn can do this using files properly encoded with Lame, but I don't think this can be done with Nero.

This post has been edited by greynol: Aug 25 2008, 19:47


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gottogo99
post Aug 25 2008, 20:07
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I'll assume you are trying to burn an audio CD from mp3 files.

If your mp3s are encoded using LAME, this will work: Install foobar2000 and its burninate plugin. Open foobar2000 and add the files you want to burn. Right click and choose convert to audio CD. This will only work with full Nero installed. Nero Lite or Micro will not work. (Burninate requires that Nero be installed).

If your mp3s are not encoded using LAME, you will still have a slight gap between tracks no matter what you do. Your only choice is tedious: convert to .wav, delete gaps, and convert to mp3 using LAME.

Edit: Burrrn may work but I don't use it.

This post has been edited by gottogo99: Aug 25 2008, 20:10
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timcupery
post Aug 25 2008, 20:12
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Ah, so the OP is interested in audio cd's burned from decoded mp3 files.
In that case, here are the factors:

0. in order to burn any mp3 or other compressed-audio track to an audio cd, the information must first be decoded, generally into a wav file. This may be done by the burning program directly, or use some other program such as foobar2000.
1. LAME-encoded mp3s have gapless-playback information: enc_delay and enc_padding. Some software (in my experience limited to foobar2000) can decode properly with this information.
2. LAME mp3s decoded by most programs that don't read or acknowledge the gapless playback info will have silence at the begining and and of the decoded file: 576 samples at the beginning and usually more at the end.
3. non-Lame mp3s don't have gapless information and have whatever amound of silence at the beginning and end (528 samples at beginning for iTunes mp3, 671 or something like that for Fgh, variable amount of silence at the end)
4. there are other methods for cutting silence from beginning and end of decoded mp3 information. iPods have had gapless playback for a bit now, and I think it works pretty well. Microsoft Zune also has gapless playback, and my old Rio Karma did too. I don't think any of these systems depend on the LAME encoding data (enc_delay and enc_padding values).
5. audio cd burns track information in blocks of 588 samples (75 blocks per second, at a normal samplerate of 44,100 khz). If you have a wav file with total sample-length that is not a multiple of 588, the burning program will need to round up or down. Most burning programs (e.g., burnatonce) round up by adding between 1 and 587 samples of silence to the end of a wav file. I believe Nero rounds down by default, and truncates between 1 and 587 samples from the end of a wav file.
Cutting a few samples from the end of a song is generally not noticeable, while introducing silence (even as little as 200 samples, in my experience) can make for a perceptibly noticeable gap.
You can use the free program wavtrim to truncate samples from the end of a wav file before using a burning program to burn that file.


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timcupery
post Aug 25 2008, 20:23
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If you want to have the easiest way to burn continuous-audio cds from mp3s, the best bet is to
1. encode mp3's using LAME so the mp3's have gapless-playback information. if you don't mess with the wav files before encoding them during the rip process, all of your mp3's will have sample lengths in multiples of 588 blocks.
2. foobar2000 can read and decode the mp3's using LAME gapless information. It's possible that some burning-specific programs can do this as well - certainly the burninate plugin for bridging between foobar2000 and Nero (as gottogo99 mentioned).
3. If you have mp3's encoded with iTunes, you can use foobar2000's "edit gapless mp3 info" utility to add 528-sample delay to the beginning of the file (672 samples with fgh mp3's, such as those put out by Windows Media Player). You can't predict how much enc_padding should be though - best bet is to add enc_delay at the beginning of the file, decode to wav using foobar2000, and then use wavtrim (which I linked in my previous post) to first "remove ending silence" and then truncate the wav file to a length in multiples of 588 samples.


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greynol
post Aug 25 2008, 20:38
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MP3s encoded with iTunes have gapless info, BTW. What it takes to burn them to a gapless CD or convert to gapless wave, I'm not sure; though I wouldn't be surprised if iTunes could do this.

This post has been edited by greynol: Aug 25 2008, 20:42


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timcupery
post Aug 25 2008, 20:43
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QUOTE (greynol @ Aug 25 2008, 15:38) *
MP3s encoded with iTunes have gapless info, BTW. What it takes to burn them to a gapless CD or convert to gapless wave, I'm not sure; though I wouldn't be surprised if iTunes could do this.

Do you know what form this gapless info takes? Is it similar (although in a diff tag format) to LAME's enc_delay and enc_padding values? Or some other logical structure?
I see lots of random tags whenever I run across iTunes-encoed mp3 files, usually long strings of characters that mean nothing to me. So curious if these are some of them.


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greynol
post Aug 25 2008, 20:58
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QUOTE (timcupery @ Aug 25 2008, 12:43) *
Do you know what form this gapless info takes?
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=430949

Also, there's really no point in explaining how to create gapless mp3s. If the guy isn't working from existing mp3s then ripping to mp3 and then burning is surely not the way to go!

This post has been edited by greynol: Aug 25 2008, 20:59


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timcupery
post Aug 25 2008, 20:59
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QUOTE (greynol @ Aug 25 2008, 12:58) *
Also, there's really no point in explaining how to create gapless mp3s. If the guy isn't working from existing mp3s ripping to mp3 and then burning is surely not the way to go!

True. I put in a lot of explanation because others will likely read this thread and be interested in how to best deal with this general problem. But you're right that a lot of stuff isn't in answer to the OP's question.

Moderation: Fixed broken link in your quotation. I had combined posts while you were in the process of replying.

btw: thanks for the link. interesting stuff.

This post has been edited by timcupery: Aug 25 2008, 21:06
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Bigger
post Aug 26 2008, 09:45
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Thank you all for your kind replies.
Yes, I need to burn an audio CD with MP3 songs (you can tell by my "technical language" how expert I am...
I'll check out all your suggestions and then come back and tell you if they worked out well.
Thanks again.
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Bigger
post Oct 3 2008, 09:17
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So, here I am again.
I am using Burrrn to record audio CDs, which seems to be a very easy and handy software to do the job.
Burrrn has got a device in its settings that provides "negative" additional gain. This reduces considerably the gap between songs but does not totally eliminate it. For someone who does not care this is just a meaningless thing, but try and burn Pink Floyd's "Dark side of the moon" and you'll be depressed right after the first two pieces. That nanosecond gap is HUGE!
I used to use Nero 5.5 on my old PC and it DID have a particular setting, that could be found on the Nero Express Wizard, that did the job P-E-R-F-E-C-T-L-Y. I have a dozen true gapless audio CDs made with MP3 songs I burnt a few months ago that testify that.
With the current 7.0 version I have now installed on my new PC this feature is simply not there anymore! Crazy, huh?
Try and burn a gapless live recording and it will sound awful with all those very small gaps between tracks.
Now, I am absolutely unable to put my hands on MP3 files, cutting, pasting, re-working things around. I need to have something like good old fashioned 5.5 Nero to did the job nicely. By the way, I tried re-installing Nero 5.5 but when you select the wizard something new, very modern but very useless, pops out on my screen. Aaaarrrrggggghhhhh!!!!!!
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