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Topic: Open vs Closed headphones (Read 14685 times) previous topic - next topic
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Open vs Closed headphones

My sennheiser is falling apart so I'm in the market for something that can accurately produce what the DAW outputs.

I'm seeing a conundrum regarding the open vs closed battle for fidelity. From my experience the open headphones can't produce enough (exaggerate) bass to make up for the lack of the tactile energy produced by the loudspeakers. Closed headphones however produce internal reverberation.

Can anyone verify the efficacy of those designs that are open back but use tight leather earpads for better seals?

Open vs Closed headphones

Reply #1 –
If you don't need isolation, open or closed is really just a matter of preference. 

If you search the Hardware sub-forum for "Headphones" you'll find some recommendations.  Besides sound quality, consider comfort and you might want to consider ruggedness and reliability.  (Speaking of reliability, Koss has a lifetime warranty.)

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Closed headphones however produce internal reverberation.
Good headphones shouldn't have that...    I generally prefer open headphones (I have a pair of Grado's) and I always think of  closed headphones as having that "resonant" sound...    But I also have a pair of Sennheiser HD280's, and I don't hear that.  I don't listen to the Sennheisers that much (actually I don't use headphones that much) and there were times in the past where I was expecting to hear that "closed headphone resonance" and it wasn't there! 

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My sennheiser is falling apart so I'm in the market for something that can accurately produce what the DAW outputs.
For music production,  ideally you should be using good monitors in a good room.

From Recording Magazine:
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As those of you who have followed this column for any length of time can attest, headphone mixing is one of the big no-no's around these parts.  In our humble opinion, headphone mixes do not translate well in the real world, period, end of story.  Other than checking for balance issues and the occasional hunting down of little details, they are tools best left for the tracking process.

Open vs Closed headphones

Reply #2 –
An example of an open headphone with great bass response: Philips Fidelio X1 or X2. Great headphones in any respect. Other than that you can find great headphones with open and closed design.
lame3995o -Q1.7 --lowpass 17

Open vs Closed headphones

Reply #3 –
Quote from: Benliq on
Closed headphones however produce internal reverberation.


They do?  The drivers in my closed ear Bose QC 15 phones are less than 1 cm. from the back.  So that's 2cm at the most the echo will be travel by reflection , which will a take around 5x10-5 seconds or .05 milliseconds.  This is FAR to little to be perceived by your ear as reverberation or an echo.

This distance is also far too small to produce destructive interference at the driver diaphragm at any frequency of interest.

There are plenty of other things to worry about, I think.

Ed Seedhouse
VA7SDH

Open vs Closed headphones

Reply #4 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
If you search the Hardware sub-forum for "Headphones" you'll find some recommendations.  Besides sound quality, consider comfort and you might want to consider ruggedness and reliability.  (Speaking of reliability, Koss has a lifetime warranty.)
I don't think Koss has anything suitable for studio use do they? Their offerings seem to have heavy sound biases and antique designs.


Open vs Closed headphones

Reply #5 –
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I don't think Koss has anything suitable for studio use do they?
I'm not specifically recommending Koss, but the lifetime warranty is something a headphone buyer might want to consider.

I assume they still make some respectable headphones.    You don't necessarily need the "best" sound for studio work.  They need to be reasonably accurate and they need to be comfortable (to you).    No matter what speakers/headphones you use, the most important thing is to "learn your monitors" so you can make good mixes on them.  But like Recording Magazine says, you shouldn't be relying on headphones to judge the "sound" of your mix anyway.  So any decent headphone should do.  If you are a pro who uses your headphones everyday, you also need ruggedness. 

  I'm not too worried about antique designs.  Not much has changed in 40 years or so...  It's still a coil of wire around a magnet connected to a diaphragm...  Maybe some of the materials have changed.    The Koss Porta-Pro has been around something like 30 years and it's still considered one of the best "cheap" headphones on the market. 

My Grado's have an outdated antique look too.

Open vs Closed headphones

Reply #6 –
In my opinion, the OPEN AKG K712 sounds pretty neutral. As a CLOSED pair, I like the KRK 8400.

Open vs Closed headphones

Reply #7 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
You don't necessarily need the "best" sound for studio work.  They need to be reasonably accurate and they need to be comfortable (to you).    No matter what speakers/headphones you use, the most important thing is to "learn your monitors" so you can make good mixes on them.  But like Recording Magazine says, you shouldn't be relying on headphones to judge the "sound" of your mix anyway.  So any decent headphone should do.  If you are a pro who uses your headphones everyday, you also need ruggedness.


A comment that is supported by the ongoing popularity of the Sony MDR6/7506.

Open vs Closed headphones

Reply #8 –
Quote from: Benliq on
From my experience the open headphones can't produce enough (exaggerate) bass to make up for the lack of the tactile energy produced by the loudspeakers. Closed headphones however produce internal reverberation.

I think listening to speakers and headphones are two different experiences. There are some pros and cons.
A good pair of headphones can have a microscopic resolution which is very hard/expensive to get with speakers. But while You listen to speakers You perceive a sound by whole body, hence a great bass feel.

I personally prefer studio monitors for a good loud session of some favorite rock/metal band 

Open vs Closed headphones

Reply #9 –
All else being equal are open headphones categorically more comfortable?

Open vs Closed headphones

Reply #10 –
Quote from: Benliq on
All else being equal are open headphones categorically more comfortable?


IME all else is rarely if ever equal.

Open air phones inherently loose a lot of bass due to their lack of sealing. I suspect that they generate a lot of bass energy that they give up by being relatively unsealed.

Open vs Closed headphones

Reply #11 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Open air phones inherently loose a lot of bass due to their lack of sealing.


Open does not equal open. What I mean is that a headphone can have a strong seal between your earcanal and the headphone driver, but can be almost completely open in the back. On the other hand some on-ear designs with just some foam in front of the drivers hardly seal, at least not in front of the drivers.
But you are right, headphones usually require some level of seal in front of the drivers to reproduce (sub) bass.


@OP:
Comfort? That's a pretty individual thing. Small earcups, high clamping pressure, .. may irritate you. Dents in the headband (see K701) or when your ears touch a hard part inside the earcups can actually cause pain after some time.
"I hear it when I see it."

Open vs Closed headphones

Reply #12 –
Quote from: xnor on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Open air phones inherently loose a lot of bass due to their lack of sealing.


Open does not equal open. What I mean is that a headphone can have a strong seal between your earcanal and the headphone driver, but can be almost completely open in the back.


Real world examples?

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On the other hand some on-ear designs with just some foam in front of the drivers hardly seal, at least not in front of the drivers.


That is my experience. 

Some headphones straddle any conceptual boundary line.  MDR 7506s for example.

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phones usually require some level of seal in front of the drivers to reproduce (sub) bass.  HD 280s are pretty well sealed, but the MDR 7506/MDR-6 are pretty leaky.


The laws of physics intrude, again.  A sealed back on a pair of headphones create an infinite baffle loudspeaker, and a tight seal around the outer earpieces create a small room.

From a comfort standpoint, the sealed backs don't seem to make much difference for comfort, but the tight seal around the outer earpieces create the love/hate situation.

Just because the outer earpiece fits tightly doesn't mean that the headphones have to be uncomfortable, and just because there's no outer seal doesn't mean that the comfort level is high.

Open vs Closed headphones

Reply #13 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Real world examples?

Audeze, Hifiman, Oppo come to mind. (It's ironic that great bass extension is ascribed to planar magnetics, when it seems more like these designs require a pretty strong seal in order to achieve this extension in the first place.)
Or something like the Fidelio L1.


Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
That is my experience.

Some headphones straddle any conceptual boundary line.  MDR 7506s for example.

Well, the foam pads on-ear was an example of the opposite 'extreme'. I think the middle ground for an "open" headphone is an open-back and breathable earpads, so just a bit of seal in the front and almost none in the back.



Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
The laws of physics intrude, again.  A sealed back on a pair of headphones create an infinite baffle loudspeaker, and a tight seal around the outer earpieces create a small room.

From a comfort standpoint, the sealed backs don't seem to make much difference for comfort, but the tight seal around the outer earpieces create the love/hate situation.

Just because the outer earpiece fits tightly doesn't mean that the headphones have to be uncomfortable, and just because there's no outer seal doesn't mean that the comfort level is high.


I think there's a mixup here. When I speak about the back then I mean the rear of the cup that is pointing away from the head, where you usually see some kind of mesh in open(-back) headphones.
But I understand what you mean. Closed-back can give this sealed-in feeling, similar to in-ears. (also see occlusion effect)

Comfort is a very individual thing. Some don't mind the earpads touching the ears, or the sealing earpads causing heat to build up ... what certainly causes discomfort is when part of the outer ear pushes against a hard part inside the earcups, or some stupid knobs on the headband, or too high clamping pressure.
"I hear it when I see it."

Open vs Closed headphones

Reply #14 –
Quote
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
The laws of physics intrude, again.  A sealed back on a pair of headphones create an infinite baffle loudspeaker, and a tight seal around the outer earpieces create a small room.

From a comfort standpoint, the sealed backs don't seem to make much difference for comfort, but the tight seal around the outer earpieces create the love/hate situation.

Just because the outer earpiece fits tightly doesn't mean that the headphones have to be uncomfortable, and just because there's no outer seal doesn't mean that the comfort level is high.


I think there's a mixup here

When I speak about the back then I mean the rear of the cup that is pointing away from the head, where you usually see some kind of mesh in open(-back) headphones.


That is what I meant.

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But I understand what you mean. Closed-back can give this sealed-in feeling, similar to in-ears. (also see occlusion effect)

Comfort is a very individual thing. Some don't mind the earpads touching the ears, or the sealing earpads causing heat to build up ... what certainly causes discomfort is when part of the outer ear pushes against a hard part inside the earcups, or some stupid knobs on the headband, or too high clamping pressure.


Agreed.

Open vs Closed headphones

Reply #15 –
Quote from: xnor on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Real world examples?

Audeze, Hifiman, Oppo come to mind. (It's ironic that great bass extension is ascribed to planar magnetics, when it seems more like these designs require a pretty strong seal in order to achieve this extension in the first place.)
Or something like the Fidelio L1.

Anything that doesn't cost so much? They are ugly and overpriced over some philosophy.

Open vs Closed headphones

Reply #16 –
You should tell us what you really want and not just debate open vs closed. You mentioned something about studio quality. Well you shouldn't be worried about bass then. You should go for something that is very detailed and with linear frequency response.

Open vs Closed headphones

Reply #17 –
Quote from: MusicExp on
You should tell us what you really want and not just debate open vs closed. You mentioned something about studio quality. Well you shouldn't be worried about bass then. You should go for something that is very detailed and with linear frequency response.


Studio quality means monitoring use, which means producing enough bass to take the place of loudspeakers.

Open vs Closed headphones

Reply #18 –
Quote from: Benliq on
Quote from: MusicExp on
You should tell us what you really want and not just debate open vs closed. You mentioned something about studio quality. Well you shouldn't be worried about bass then. You should go for something that is very detailed and with linear frequency response.


Studio quality means monitoring use, which means producing enough bass to take the place of loudspeakers.


I recommend that you buy based on comfort, need forisolation, reasonably smooth, balanced and clean response and use a parametric equalizer to fine tune the spectral balance to suit yourself.

Open vs Closed headphones

Reply #19 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: Benliq on
Quote from: MusicExp on
You should tell us what you really want and not just debate open vs closed. You mentioned something about studio quality. Well you shouldn't be worried about bass then. You should go for something that is very detailed and with linear frequency response.


Studio quality means monitoring use, which means producing enough bass to take the place of loudspeakers.


I recommend that you buy based on comfort, need forisolation, reasonably smooth, balanced and clean response and use a parametric equalizer to fine tune the spectral balance to suit yourself.


I second that.  I bought a pair of inexpensive Koss UR20 headphones and equalized it.  I used the inverse of the frequency response measurement from Headroom as a starting point and fine tuned it.  They sound fantastic and are very comfortable.

I am not suggesting you get an inexpensive pair, just that equalizing works well.

Desirider.

Open vs Closed headphones

Reply #20 –
I want to recommend Sennheiser HD 650, but I don't know your budget.

Open vs Closed headphones

Reply #21 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: Benliq on
Quote from: MusicExp on
You should tell us what you really want and not just debate open vs closed. You mentioned something about studio quality. Well you shouldn't be worried about bass then. You should go for something that is very detailed and with linear frequency response.


Studio quality means monitoring use, which means producing enough bass to take the place of loudspeakers.


I recommend that you buy based on comfort, need forisolation, reasonably smooth, balanced and clean response and use a parametric equalizer to fine tune the spectral balance to suit yourself.

If they are to be used in music mixing, will side effects arise from successive equalizations?

Open vs Closed headphones

Reply #22 –
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If they are to be used in music mixing, will side effects arise from successive equalizations?
You mean equalizing the headphones, not the mix, right?

If the headphones are decent you shouldn't need "excessive" EQ.  But yes.  With a lot of boost, you can clip the DAC or clip something in the analog chain. 

If you decide to use EQ you need to "set and forget" the EQ so you can learn to make good mixes with what you are hearing.    It will probably take several projects before you learn to make good mixes on your headphones/monitors, EQ'd or not you.

Open vs Closed headphones

Reply #23 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
You mean equalizing the headphones, not the mix, right?

Yes. But what happens when the two eqs work in succession?

For example in a mix the eq frequency bands can overlap, which must be kept in mind when doing the EQing.

Doesn't the eq bands for the headphone stack with those in the mix?

Open vs Closed headphones

Reply #24 –
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Doesn't the eq bands for the headphone stack with those in the mix?
Yes, of course.  Hopefully, your headphones are good enough that they don't need a lot of EQ.    And again, your headphones don't have to be "perfect".  They have to be accurate enough that they don't mislead you into making a bad mix, and so you can learn to make good mixes on them.  Even if they have perfectly-flat frequency response, learning to get the best mix that "translates" will still take some time. 

And if you have a reasonably good recording, the recording shouldn't need a lot of EQ either.    It's common for pros to use at least a little EQ on every track and also on the master.  (It's common to completely filter-out the bass from everything except the bass guitar & kick drum.)    If the track is mastered, the mastering engineer may use more EQ. 

So, all of these are combined.