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Topic: Windows 8 Mixer Resampling (Read 8545 times) previous topic - next topic
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Windows 8 Mixer Resampling

I've become aware that Windows Vista did a remarkably poor job of resampling audio played in "shared mode."

http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/Lib/Ope...SampleRates.pdf

Does anyone have more recent information on this?  Has it been fixed in more recent versions of Windows?

Windows 8 Mixer Resampling

Reply #1 –
We've had several threads about this. One of such is this one about Windows 7 : http://www.hydrogenaud.io/forums/index.php...86676&st=50 , which in the end, ended being a combination of several factors, including the software used.

Microsoft at one point released a patch to fix a resampling bug, that was affecting applications using the old waveout (MME) interface. Not sure if that's what the PDF you point out shows.

Another one that could be worth reading is this : http://www.hydrogenaud.io/forums/index.php?showtopic=104547


Btw, "shared mode" is a term used to describe one of the WASAPI modes. I don't think Windows Media Player uses WASAPI.

Windows 8 Mixer Resampling

Reply #2 –
Quote from: [JAZ] on

We've had several threads about this. One of such is this one about Windows 7 : http://www.hydrogenaud.io/forums/index.php...86676&st=50 , which in the end, ended being a combination of several factors, including the software used.

Microsoft at one point released a patch to fix a resampling bug, that was affecting applications using the old waveout (MME) interface. Not sure if that's what the PDF you point out shows.

Another one that could be worth reading is this : http://www.hydrogenaud.io/forums/index.php?showtopic=104547


Btw, "shared mode" is a term used to describe one of the WASAPI modes. I don't think Windows Media Player uses WASAPI.


Yes, the thread you link to is where I found that PDF.  I'm wondering if more recent measurements have been taken, or if I should just be certain that I'm using WASAPI exclusive mode.

Windows 8 Mixer Resampling

Reply #3 –
Quote
I've become aware that Windows Vista did a remarkably poor job...
You became aware of it because you read about it on an "audiophile" website right?    You didn't actually hear anything wrong, did you? 

Windows 8 Mixer Resampling

Reply #4 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
Quote
I've become aware that Windows Vista did a remarkably poor job...
You became aware of it because you read about it on an "audiophile" website right?    You didn't actually hear anything wrong, did you? 


I read about it on this website, but made no effort to determine if I could hear anything wrong with any possible program material.

Windows 8 Mixer Resampling

Reply #5 –
That pdf states the windows mixer is always "operating on max frequency possible", that's not true. At least not for my Realtek card.
It is capable of 192kHz according to the sound control panel, but the default format used in shared mode is 48kHz.

Windows 8 Mixer Resampling

Reply #6 –
Quote from: ChronoSphere on
That pdf states the windows mixer is always "operating on max frequency possible", that's not true. At least not for my Realtek card.
It is capable of 192kHz according to the sound control panel, but the default format used in shared mode is 48kHz.


In your device properties you can specify the default sampling rate to be used in shared mode...

Windows 8 Mixer Resampling

Reply #7 –
Quote from: Mach-X on
Quote from: ChronoSphere on
That pdf states the windows mixer is always "operating on max frequency possible", that's not true. At least not for my Realtek card.
It is capable of 192kHz according to the sound control panel, but the default format used in shared mode is 48kHz.


In your device properties you can specify the default sampling rate to be used in shared mode...
Yes, and...?

Windows 8 Mixer Resampling

Reply #8 –
Quote from: ChronoSphere on
Quote from: Mach-X on
Quote from: ChronoSphere on
That pdf states the windows mixer is always "operating on max frequency possible", that's not true. At least not for my Realtek card.
It is capable of 192kHz according to the sound control panel, but the default format used in shared mode is 48kHz.


In your device properties you can specify the default sampling rate to be used in shared mode...
Yes, and...?


The PDF states that you won't get distortion from re-sampling if you set the shared mode sampling rate to be the same as your source material (or if you switch to OS X).

Windows 8 Mixer Resampling

Reply #9 –
According to that pdf, it should have been set to 192kHz per default (=highest supported frequency), but it's set to 48kHz for me. I never changed anything.

Windows 8 Mixer Resampling

Reply #10 –
I also think that part of the PDF is dubious.
It might have been something to do with some specific drivers, or maybe early versions of the OS. (I don't remember needing to change it on the Vista SP1 that i had).


Edit: Page 6, just about the graphic.

Windows 8 Mixer Resampling

Reply #11 –
Quote from: ChronoSphere on
According to that pdf, it should have been set to 192kHz per default (=highest supported frequency), but it's set to 48kHz for me. I never changed anything.


What PDF are you reading?

"When using general purpose programs that use DirectSound (e.g. Windows Media Player), it works much the same as OSX - all audio is re-sampled by the OS to that set in the control panel."

Windows 8 Mixer Resampling

Reply #12 –
Quote from: [JAZ] on

I also think that part of the PDF is dubious.
It might have been something to do with some specific drivers, or maybe early versions of the OS. (I don't remember needing to change it on the Vista SP1 that i had).


Okay, I see it later in the article.  They should've said "outputs at the the highest rate allowed by the control panel setting" or somesuch...

Windows 8 Mixer Resampling

Reply #13 –
I think you still don't get it.

The sentence, as it is written (as well as your suggestion), would imply that all computers sold would be setup to use 96Khz or above (since pretty much all computers sold since Vista have "HD Audio") , but the truth is that usually they are setup to 48Khz, so either we don't understand "default" in the same sense, or it is incorrect at least nowadays.

Windows 8 Mixer Resampling

Reply #14 –
Quote from: [JAZ] on

I think you still don't get it.

The sentence, as it is written (as well as your suggestion), would imply that all computers sold would be setup to use 96Khz or above (since pretty much all computers sold since Vista have "HD Audio") , but the truth is that usually they are setup to 48Khz, so either we don't understand "default" in the same sense, or it is incorrect at least nowadays.


The original sentence does imply that, and contradicts a sentence earlier in the article.  How about "outputs at the rate set in the control panel?"

Windows 8 Mixer Resampling

Reply #15 –
Default as in "ships with it", not as in "it is the the software fallback option".

Windows 8 Mixer Resampling

Reply #16 –
Quote from: [JAZ] on

Default as in "ships with it", not as in "it is the the software fallback option".


Okay, so most computers default to re-sampling at 48kHz instead of 96kHz.  I doubt 44.1 -> 48kHz looks much better with Mucrosoft's inept re-sampling.

Windows 8 Mixer Resampling

Reply #17 –
Quote from: theriverlethe on
Okay, so most computers default to re-sampling at 48kHz instead of 96kHz.  I doubt 44.1 -> 48kHz looks much better with Mucrosoft's inept re-sampling.

Or maybe you're just too inept to install an up-to-date OS and the updates that are provided freely.


All of this has already been covered extensively and fixed years ago: here, KB2653312 (fix released end of 2011 ...)
"I hear it when I see it."

Windows 8 Mixer Resampling

Reply #18 –
Quote from: xnor on
Quote from: theriverlethe on
Okay, so most computers default to re-sampling at 48kHz instead of 96kHz.  I doubt 44.1 -> 48kHz looks much better with Mucrosoft's inept re-sampling.

Or maybe you're just too inept to install an up-to-date OS and the updates that are provided freely.


All of this has already been covered extensively and fixed years ago: here, KB2653312 (fix released end of 2011 ...)


No, I assure you I'm not, nor do I make personal attacks without basis.  Is this forum always so hostile to basic technical questions?

I'm glad to see it only took MS three years to (probably) fix this.  Thank you for the links.

Edit:  Sorry, FIVE years.

Windows 8 Mixer Resampling

Reply #21 –
No, you are right
TheWellTemperedComputer.com

Windows 8 Mixer Resampling

Reply #22 –
Quote from: Mach-X on
Quote from: ChronoSphere on
That pdf states the windows mixer is always "operating on max frequency possible", that's not true. At least not for my Realtek card.  It is capable of 192kHz according to the sound control panel, but the default format used in shared mode is 48kHz.
  In your device properties you can specify the default sampling rate to be used in shared mode...


Does the default actually mean wanted?

I have three audio devices in my Windows7 PC; integrated VIA 1828S (24/192), ESI DuaFire (24/96) and E-MU 0404 USB (24/192). Executeing the "Restore Defaults" function found on Sound -> Properties ->  Advanced -tab gave next results:

VIA - 24-bit/48kHz
ESI - 16-bit/44.1kHz
E-MU - what is set in E-MU Control Panel (in most cases) --> fuzzy logic 

Is it just that in case of VIA and ESI the default format is hard coded somewhere (driver?) ?

Windows 8 Mixer Resampling

Reply #23 –
Quote from: theriverlethe on
No, I assure you I'm not, nor do I make personal attacks without basis.  Is this forum always so hostile to basic technical questions?

My basis was your comment about "Mucrosoft's inept re-sampling". And no, it isn't. I'm just re-using your words.


Quote
I'm glad to see it only took MS three years to (probably) fix this.  Thank you for the links.

First of all, if you read the links which you "(probably)" didn't, you would have seen that this problem only occurred when recording and letting Windows do the sample rate conversion due to a sampling rate mismatch.
Tell me, what use cases do you see where this scenario is happening and high signal quality is needed?

Secondly, it took people a few years themselves to notice this (again, it isn't a prominent scenario imho). Also it just isn't/wasn't such a big issue for MS to release a fix as early as possible. Vista had many much more severe problems.
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if MS had decided to release a fix much later than a few years..

Even if the issue affected playback only, what's the big deal? You can:
a) configure the proper sampling rate, or
b) do resampling in your player with the resampling plugin you trust, or
c) use an exclusive access audio APIs in your player
"I hear it when I see it."

Windows 8 Mixer Resampling

Reply #24 –
When I switched from XP to 7 last year I came across this exact problem. It happend when I used Audacity, while listening to music with Foobar.

After hours of try and error I became aware it is a problem related to Win7. Sure, the hotfix exists since years, but you need to install it manually.