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Best turntable to "rip" dance music with no pitch changes, Anything better than the technics?
212121
post Mar 16 2010, 00:36
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Hi,

I want to convert my vinyl collection. My main priority is to have the tracks with a constant pitch! It's dance music and I will use the digital files for djing. I really need the beats to be aligned to a grid, just like they are if the record is playing at 0% pitch.

I already have a Technics 1210 MK5 and it's great for djing! It does a great job and the beats stay aligned. But I know there are turntables with better sound quality. Wonder if it's worth to buy a new turntable just to "rip" (I know it's not the right term) my vinyl collection. But as I said, it's absolutely necessary that the pitch stays constant. If it changes then it's really bad for what I do.

I hope you understand me

Thank you
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DVDdoug
post Mar 16 2010, 02:03
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You have a fine turntable! You are not getting speed variations with your Technics, are you???

Be careful when you ask for "the best". In the audiophile world, there are all kinds of high-end turntables... I doubt I could hear any difference, assuming the same cartridge. (All I want from a turntable is low rumble, constant speed, and tonearm that can track with a good cartridge.)

You might get better sound with a "hi-fi" cartridge compared with a DJ cartridge. DJ cartridges need to be rugged, and you might be compromising sound quality. But, I wouldn't get too carried-away here either. Shure's top-of-the line M97xE cartridge can be had for under $100 USD. Shure's best should be "good enough". (I'm not recommending the Shure... I haven't bought a cartridge in several years... I just feel that it gives a price-sanity check.)

If you have a cheap phono preamp (in your mixer?) you might benefit from a better (lower noise) preamp, but that's hard to judge... and I'm not sure if you can compare manufacturer's specs since each manufacturer has their own test methods.

The weak link is the record itself. No matter what you do, you're still dealing with analog vinyl. wink.gif

You can do a lot with EQ (if necessary) and de-clicking in "post processing". As long as you have a reasonably decent set-up, the post-processing software can make a bigger difference than whatever analog hardware you have.

QUOTE
...to "rip" (I know it's not the right term)
How about "record"? Or, a lot of people say "digitize". wink.gif

P.S.
Here is a web page with lots of information/advice about recording and "cleaning-up" vinyl transfers.

And, I use Wave Repair for removing "snap", "crackle", and "pop". It can be very time-consuming, but in the manual mode, it can do an amazing job with most vinyl defects.

This post has been edited by DVDdoug: Mar 16 2010, 02:16
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Canar
post Mar 16 2010, 03:02
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"Rip" is a fine term for the process, IMO. It's quite analogous to CD ripping.


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greynol
post Mar 16 2010, 07:33
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Are you sure you want to maintain the same pitch or is it the rhythm that you actually care about?


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212121
post Mar 16 2010, 10:46
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Hi,

Thanks for your replies, specially DVDdoug wink.gif

greynol I want the beats to stay aligned. I'm going to use the files for djing, I need the pitch to stay at 0% so that I can play two records at the same time. If the beats don't stay aligned to a grid I can't mix the tracks. It's all about beatmatching.

I have been reading the Hydrogenaudio faqs and vinyl posts. I know that audiophile turntables can cost a lot more than normal turntables and they only have 5-10% better sound. So I'm trying to figure out if it's worth to get one.

Someone wants to buy my Technics 1210 MK5. Maybe I could buy a turntable with less noise / better audio quality.

Technics are famous for their constant pitch, that's why they are dj turntables. The sound could be better, everyone knows that. I wonder if I can also get a constant pitch in other (better) turntables?

Price should not be a problem as long as it's for a good reason. I'm not going to pay a lot more to get only 1-5% better sound smile.gif


Thanks again!

This post has been edited by 212121: Mar 16 2010, 10:47
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AndyH-ha
post Mar 16 2010, 10:47
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It's a pretty far stretch that DAE is analogous to recording from an analogue source. In the brave new world, reducing the tool set of abstract thinking is a favored method of mind control. Without the ability to conceptualize differences, one is more easily led by the nose. Without an adequate vocabulary, clear thinking about anything not immediate to the senses is not possible: fuzzy words, fuzzy thoughts. Fairly often, use of the slang term “ripping”is an indication of confusion about what one is trying to discuss.
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AndyH-ha
post Mar 16 2010, 10:51
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It's a pretty far stretch that DAE is analogous to recording from an analogue source. The closest concept is perhaps that one is transfering some kind of information from somewhere to somewhere else. Thus a better word is "transfer" but transfer, while better, isn't very good under most circumstances.

In the brave new world, reducing the tool set of abstract thinking is a favored method of mind control. Without the ability to conceptualize differences, one is more easily led by the nose. Without an adequate vocabulary, clear thinking about anything not immediate to the senses is not possible: fuzzy words, fuzzy thoughts. Fairly often, use of the slang term “ripping”is an indication of confusion about what one is trying to discuss.
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212121
post Mar 16 2010, 11:17
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I think right now I have more important stuff to care about, other than choosing the right words, I think you got my message.

Thanks smile.gif
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Cavaille
post Mar 16 2010, 12:07
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You are mad if you want to go for a better turntable. The Technics isn´t bad, I wonder where this "knowledge" of its bad sound comes from (the Technics 1210 MKII isn´t suited very good for HiFi - but yours is very much!). It has one of the most stable drives in the whole wide world, its tonearm is legendary robust and very well constructed. I don´t know why many "audiophiles" think that the cartridge is so important... the drive and the arm are.

You will improve your Technics by buying a new cartridge designed for HiFi purposes. Ortofon offers many variants for the SME connector of the wonderful tonearm. Take a look at for example the Ortofon Concorde Gold (I think).

Then you can further experiment with different maps. Since so much in a turntable depends on vibrations they can change much of the sound.

Align your Technics properly and there won´t be any better turntable - except if you plan on spending tons of money.


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gottogo99
post Mar 16 2010, 12:13
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A couple points here: 1) If you get an "audiophile" turntable, it will probably be belt drive. Might have subjectively better sound quality, but also might have higher wow&flutter which is exactly what you are trying to avoid as a dj. Technics should be rock solid. 2) More important to the sound quality than the turntable, IMHO, is your analog to digital converter. What are you using or going to use? I highly recommend not using the built in line-in connection on a PC or laptop. A sound card specifically designed for recording, not gaming, is what you need.

Once you get the tracks recorded, you then need to edit them and maybe process them with something like Audacity. You will probably need to manually tag them also. The whole process is pretty tedious. If these songs are available on CD, I would spend the money on buying CDs instead of a turntable. I assume the songs are not available on CD and you have the time for the ripping.

This post has been edited by gottogo99: Mar 16 2010, 12:14
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212121
post Mar 16 2010, 12:15
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Cavaille and gottogo99 thanks for your replies

gottogo99 I do buy digital when it's possible. Unfortunately lots of dance music tracks (the good ones IMHO) only get released on vinyl. I'm talking about EP's smile.gif

I wasn't sure if the Technics are good cause I've seen a couple of modifications done to these turntables. For example removing the strobe light...

I really didn't know that the MK5 was better in terms of sound quality.

Right now I don't have a ADC. I will buy a good one :-)

I do have a Lavry DA11 but it's a DAC eheh. I don't know if high-end converters are really worth it. But I'm willing to spend 500-1000 euros if needed smile.gif But then again, I think I can get a good or decent one for a lower price! As I said I'm not paying more 100-200 euros for just 1-5% better quality.

I also have a ECHO audio fire 2 card. It has "line inputs". I'm really new to this analogue to digital stuff. Have to read more about it. Right now jus trying to figure out if I want to keep this turntable. And I think I will

Thanks again

This post has been edited by 212121: Mar 16 2010, 12:21
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benski
post Mar 16 2010, 18:08
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Your Echo soundcard should be fine. The warning about line-inputs was usually the cheap 1/8" input on an onboard soundcard that is not usually not well isolated from the rest of the computer
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greynol
post Mar 16 2010, 18:12
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QUOTE (212121 @ Mar 16 2010, 02:46) *
greynol I want the beats to stay aligned. I'm going to use the files for djing, I need the pitch to stay at 0% so that I can play two records at the same time. If the beats don't stay aligned to a grid I can't mix the tracks. It's all about beatmatching.

That's fine, but you're mistaking terms that have well defined and accepted meanings.

While you're correct in that calibrating the speed of the turntable may require a pitch adjustment, the pace of your beats is called rhythm, not pitch. Unlike with a record player, in the digital realm you can control both.

This post has been edited by greynol: Mar 16 2010, 18:38


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Canar
post Mar 16 2010, 18:17
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QUOTE (AndyH-ha @ Mar 16 2010, 04:51) *
In the brave new world, reducing the tool set of abstract thinking is a favored method of mind control. Without the ability to conceptualize differences, one is more easily led by the nose. Without an adequate vocabulary, clear thinking about anything not immediate to the senses is not possible: fuzzy words, fuzzy thoughts. Fairly often, use of the slang term “ripping”is an indication of confusion about what one is trying to discuss.
While I understand your point and agree with you that it is valid (and likely even more correct than the alternative), "vinyl ripping" is commonly accepted as the name of this process in other communities I frequent.

The original poster was simply trying to communicate what he was trying to do. He has clearly succeeded. Semantic arguments aside, we understood, and that's of primary importance.

This post has been edited by Canar: Mar 16 2010, 18:17


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DVDdoug
post Mar 16 2010, 18:33
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QUOTE
I wasn't sure if the Technics are good cause I've seen a couple of modifications done to these turntables. For example removing the strobe light...
I don't own one of these turntables, but I believe the strobe is the only way to accurately set the speed... I assume DJs remove the strobe because they want to adjust the speed by ear for beat matching, and maybe the strobe is distracting?

QUOTE
Right now I don't have a ADC. I will buy a good one :-)

I do have a Lavry DA11 but it's a DAC eheh. I don't know if high-end converters are really worth it. But I'm willing to spend 500-1000 euros if needed...

I also have a ECHO audio fire 2 card. It has "line inputs". ...
I don't have a specific recommendation for you... There was a recent discussion about using motherboard soundchips for recording. Most soundcards/soundchips will have low distortion and flat frequency response. The only spec I'd be worried about is noise. You will be getting noise from your preamp and from the vinyl surface... But, if you think your soundcard is contributing noise, you can try a better soundcard or some sort of external recording interface (example).

NOTE - Most regular soundcards have a 16-bit ADC often are limited to 48kHz. In my opinion (audiophiles might disagree) this is fine for digitizing vinyl or any pre-recorded/pre-mastered material. (24 bits can give you additional headroom for live recording, mixing, processing, and other studio work.)

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Axon
post Mar 16 2010, 20:18
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The correct term is "transcription", although I still use the term "rip". Music is being transferred (transcribed) from one medium to another. IMHO, "Transcribe" does not really work for CD-DA, or really for any other historical use of digital audio ripping, because the digital audio itself obviously remains unchanged. The medium changes, but it's not really clear at that point whether one is talking about the medium as an intrinsic part of the audio format (like vinyl), or an essentially interchangeable data carrier.

And yes, keep the 1210. Maybe if you've modded it to remove the quartz lock/0% detent, or otherwise there's something wrong with it, will it not be the absolutely most speed-stable table you will find (for your purposes, eg avoiding >$10k craziness).
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212121
post Mar 17 2010, 10:08
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Thanks for your replies smile.gif
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Messer
post Mar 17 2010, 15:09
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QUOTE (Cavaille @ Mar 16 2010, 12:07) *
the Technics 1210 MKII isn´t suited very good for HiFi - but yours is very much!.

Could you elaborate on that?

Seems weird, since the most advanced changes between MK2 and MK5 are increased range of antiscating settings (0-60mN instead of 0-30mN) and the addition of pitch reset button instead of slider "dip" at 0%. Otherwise it's all the same - at least that's what people say.

(I'm just going to buy Technics/Panasonic 1210 and rather spent difference on better cartridge than buy features I'll never use.)
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AndyH-ha
post Mar 18 2010, 07:35
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You might understand what the post is about due to the context, although this is certainly not always easy, but what about the poster. I’ve seen “rip” used for a great many audio related process (and a few non-audio ones) including, but not limited to, live recording, reading from and writing to data CD-R, moving or coping files from one hard drive to another, and getting a signal to speakers.

Often enough it is obvious enough, from the overall context, that the person has little idea what their topic actually involves. If they understood the subject a little better they should often be able to reason out the answer to their question by themselves. Pointing out the correct terminology, with appropriate explanations, can be helpful.

My objection here was the encouragement given to sloppy communication, not an effort to corrected the poster’s vocabulary or grammar. Obviously the main thrust of this thread was factual information not relevant to an abstraction of the process, although it is also evident that the poster doesn’t currently understand everything he will need for the eventual success of his proposed project.

When one does understand what he is talking or thinking about, any word sound can be made to stand for the concept of the moment without internal confusion. This may of course make for some difficulty communicating it to others if one chooses a non-conventional word, and it seems somewhat like encrypting you own thoughts, but there is no magic in any particular word. Jargon often evolves in order to exclude outsiders, but its use for technical subjects is more often to make distinctions clearer, the opposite of the practice seemingly encouraged here.

While one can successfully, and reasonably clearly, use the same word, with different adjectives, for dissimilar process, I don’t much like the practice, especially when better words exist. That doesn’t mean I’m on a crusade, or that I expect my tastes to be accepted by others, but if you know it isn’t the right term, why not use a better one?
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Cavaille
post Mar 18 2010, 09:20
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QUOTE (Messer @ Mar 17 2010, 15:09) *
QUOTE (Cavaille @ Mar 16 2010, 12:07) *
the Technics 1210 MKII isn´t suited very good for HiFi - but yours is very much!.

Could you elaborate on that?

Seems weird, since the most advanced changes between MK2 and MK5 are increased range of antiscating settings (0-60mN instead of 0-30mN) and the addition of pitch reset button instead of slider "dip" at 0%. Otherwise it's all the same - at least that's what people say.

(I'm just going to buy Technics/Panasonic 1210 and rather spent difference on better cartridge than buy features I'll never use.)
I´ve read when the MK5 was released that Technics did a slight alteration to the bearing of the platter itself. Since Turntables seem to be fragile when it comes to things like that this had - according to some tests - an important impact.

But I also would buy an MK2 - I´ve heard it myself often and it is unbreakable. It feels nice and I think it surpasses every other turntable I´ve heard soundwise. I´ve never heard an MK5 though, so I can´t say anything about its sound.


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Axon
post Mar 18 2010, 16:45
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I've heard rumors that Matsushita doesn't even manufacture the bearings anymore - the tooling for that has been spun off to a third party. At this point, manufacturing variations are probably far higher in magnitude than the differences between the 12x0 models in terms of audibility.
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Irukandji syndro...
post Apr 23 2010, 20:00
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QUOTE (Axon @ Mar 18 2010, 15:45) *
I've heard rumors that Matsushita doesn't even manufacture the bearings anymore - the tooling for that has been spun off to a third party. At this point, manufacturing variations are probably far higher in magnitude than the differences between the 12x0 models in terms of audibility.


Hi 212121

I'm doing the exactly the same thing as you on a technics mk 2 but i modifying my deck to be an audiophile 1210. I'm digitizing my entire record selection (lots of oldskool hardcore, jungle D&B) to use with serato. If you were willing to spend a little more i reccomend you upgrade the tonearm to a modified rega 250 tonearm (origin live).

http://www.tonearm.co.uk/tonearm.htm



The 1210 is a solid performer which is let down by the poor tonearm. The origin live modified rega tonearms are reported in numerous hifi magazine reviews of having the audio quality a tone arm in £1000-£1500 region and is as an absolute must for around £300 with all the modifications made. I picked up mine for £190 pounds on ebay with the structural, internal wiring and external wiring modifications already fitted, absolute bargin!!. Saying all this tho i hav'nt actually heard the tonearm perform yet as i'm having it fitted in a few days time. So i shall report if i think its as dramtic as i hope it will be. Also i'm torn on cartridge choice. I'm not looking for something incredibly accurate and precise rather warmer and well represented in the lower end obviously i'm torn between the Grado DJ200i or splashing out for the prestige Gold. I'm leaning towards grado as i've heard repeatedly that they are quite a warm sounding pleasent and very nice in the bass dept which is a must for me. Also i have bought moth mk II vacuum record cleaner as obviously my vinyl has never been cleaned properly is around 15 years old and generally quite heavily abused.

Just cant wait to get up and running and hear my tunes like i've never heard them before!!!









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db1989
post Apr 23 2010, 23:12
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Disclaimer: I've no experience with vinyl beyond playing some LPs as a kid, and buying a few collectables in recent years. That said…

QUOTE (Irukandji syndrome @ Apr 23 2010, 20:00) *

QUOTE
“I have to say the Rega upgrades turn this humble arm into a real Giant killer. Gone is the rather grey, sterile sound of the cooking Rega. Instead, tonal colour is fresh, dynamics have great speed and impact, and the sound stage is huge.”
UPGRADE TO rega RB300 & RB250 - Hi-Fi World[/b]

“In short, the performance boost was striking. The most obvious improvement concerns scale. With the modified arm, the stereo image is much wider and deeper enabling each musician to be placed with accuracy within the sound stage. Focus is better too and improved bass depth increases solidity and weight. In fact, there isn’t an area in which the standard arm betters the modified. Dynamic swings are faster and tonal colours far more vivid, making the standard RB250 seem almost grey by comparison.
HI FI WORLD

Oh dear.

I assume that blind tests are more difficult to perform with vinyl equipment, but I think these reviewers would benefit from them, though perhaps not as much as from lessons in clear language and talking sense. If people must state what are essentially subjective opinions, can they not do so simply? "The bass was louder; I liked that." Nope; it's the usual ill-defined stuff like "tonal colour", "solidity", and the almost mythical "sound stage". It almost seems like both reviews are paraphrased from the same press release / audiophile dictionary.
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Cavaille
post Apr 24 2010, 11:48
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QUOTE (Irukandji syndrome @ Apr 23 2010, 21:00) *
The 1210 is a solid performer which is let down by the poor tonearm.
I have to disagree strongly. The tonearm of the Technics is known to be one of the best things about the turntable together with the drive itself. It´s ultra-durable and not prone to vibrations. I´ve read numerous times that the bearings of the tonearm are exquisite and almost indestructable. Everything I´ve read and heard so far just says one thing: the sound of the Technics depends mostly on the pick-up. And according to vinyl affocinados this is exactly how a good turntable behaves. With "lesser" turntables you wouldn´t have an improvement if you´d use better pick-ups, with the Technics you would.


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botface
post Apr 24 2010, 15:24
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QUOTE (dv1989 @ Apr 23 2010, 22:12) *
I assume that blind tests are more difficult to perform with vinyl equipment.............

True, but I tried my best about 10 or 12 years ago when I had the OL structural modifications done to one of my RB300s. The differences were easy to spot.
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