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Determine a songs pitch to confirm it's at 432 hz, was: "View information on song"
greynol
post Oct 12 2011, 12:54
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You can't make the blanket assumption that instrument scale (read: string lengths), string material, construction and gauge remain constant even though the reference pitch changes. IOW, it's not like reference pitch evolves but the instruments don't.

This post has been edited by greynol: Oct 12 2011, 13:03


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Northpack
post Oct 12 2011, 13:18
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QUOTE (dhromed @ Oct 12 2011, 12:49) *
QUOTE (Northpack @ Oct 12 2011, 12:56) *
sonorous and bright sound qualities

Do these terms have (common) definitions? Just asking.

Of course these terms are subjective, but I think it should be easy to link them to the spectrum of overtones an instrument produces.

QUOTE (greynol @ Oct 12 2011, 12:54) *
You can't make the blanket assumption that instrument scale (read: string lengths), string material, construction and gauge remain constant even though the reference pitch changes. IOW, it's not like reference pitch evolves but the instruments don't.

Who makes this assumption!? That would be the opposite of what I stated in my previous post huh.gif

This post has been edited by Northpack: Oct 12 2011, 13:27
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greynol
post Oct 12 2011, 13:27
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QUOTE (Northpack @ Oct 12 2011, 05:18) *
Who makes this assumption!?

A question with an exclamation mark? My aren't we sensitive.

Is it possible that it might have been someone other than you? wink.gif

Since you seem to want feedback about your post, I can't exactly concur that increasing string tension results in a sound that is thin and harsh. If you constrain the scale and pitch of the instrument but increase the string gauge (and hence the tension), I don't find that it sounds thin. When done to the level that the change is audibly perceptible, I have a feeling the results will run counter to the implied claim.

This post has been edited by greynol: Oct 12 2011, 13:49


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Northpack
post Oct 12 2011, 14:06
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QUOTE (greynol @ Oct 12 2011, 13:27) *
QUOTE (Northpack @ Oct 12 2011, 05:18) *
Who makes this assumption!?

Is it possible that it might have been someone other than you?

Using quotes could relieve my sensitivity wink.gif

QUOTE
Since you seem to want feedback about your post, I can't exactly concur that increasing string tension results in a sound that is thin and harsh. If you constrain the scale and pitch of the instrument but increase the string gauge (and hence the tension), I don't find that it sounds thin; quite the opposite.

That's another point. AFAIK lifting the string's tension creates more upper harmonics - so the overall balance shifts towards the bright. Compare the sound of a streel string to that of a nylon string. Of course the steel string guitar has a larger corpus which better amplifies the fundamental and lower harmonics.

Maybe it's my use of the word sonorous which caused confusion. Possibly it has a slightly different meaning in German where is means "deep, dark, full"?

This post has been edited by Northpack: Oct 12 2011, 14:22
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dhromed
post Oct 12 2011, 16:03
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QUOTE
AFAIK lifting the string's tension creates more upper harmonics - so the overall balance shifts towards the bright.


See, I was going to assume that more harmonics would be sonorous, while bright would produce an increasingly pure tone and harsher sound.
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Northpack
post Oct 12 2011, 17:22
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OK, here is what my nylon string guitar says:



The first is an E4 played on the open first string, the second is an E4 played on the fretted third string. You can see that the that the open string (which's lighter gauge equals a higher tension) has much more harmonic content where n>4. Although the fretted strings attack peaks higher than the open strings, the open string subjectively sounds louder. The open string sounds bright, the fretted strings sounds mellow.

EDIT: I've uploaded the audio file here.

Btw. did you notice that my guitar is tuned to A-432Hz? emot-haw.gif

This post has been edited by Northpack: Oct 12 2011, 17:57
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greynol
post Oct 12 2011, 18:08
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Revise the experiment with different gauge strings using the same scale. You also need to make sure the material on which the string is terminated is also the same, otherwise you're bringing more variables into the equation. Further, there can also be differences in resonances and overtones depending on where the string is in relation to the instrument.

QUOTE (Northpack @ Oct 12 2011, 09:22) *
Btw. did you notice that my guitar is tuned to A-432Hz?

...indicating a fundamental problem with your presentation as it relates to the topic. You should really be comparing the overtones of the same open string tuned to two different notes.

I'd also be interested in a similar test with steel strings, seeing that it may allow more accurate extrapolation to other stringed instruments that do not use nylon.

QUOTE (Northpack @ Oct 12 2011, 06:06) *
Maybe it's my use of the word sonorous which caused confusion. Possibly it has a slightly different meaning in German where is means "deep, dark, full"?

Could easily be. In my circle of English-speaking peers thin/thick/full does not mean the same thing as bright/dark.

I don't believe that jazz and blues guitar players use thicker gauge strings to sound thin and harsh.

This post has been edited by greynol: Oct 12 2011, 19:01


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Northpack
post Oct 12 2011, 19:07
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QUOTE (greynol @ Oct 12 2011, 18:08) *
You also need to make sure the material on which the string is terminated is also the same, otherwise you're bringing more variables into the equation.

I'll happily neglect this. It really doesn't make much of a difference when I do the same with a fretted F4.

QUOTE
You should really be comparing the overtones of the same open string tuned to two different notes.

Agreed! I'll do this when I find some time.

QUOTE
I'd also be interested in a similar test with steel strings, seeing that it may allow more accurate extrapolation to other stringed instruments that do not use nylon.

Noted. I don't expect a fundamental difference though, as the same physical laws apply.

QUOTE
I don't believe that jazz and blues guitar players use thicker gauge strings to sound thin and harsh.

If you are refering to what I said in post #24, you should note that the construction of steel string guitars differs from classical guitars in several ways: they are build much stiffer and most importantly have an adjustable steel truss rod which bears the strings' tension. If you use thicker gauge strings and/or lifted tunings you have to adjust the truss rod accordingly. That's not possible with a nylon string guitar.

AFAIK most jazzies prefer lighter gauge strings, because they are easier to bend and have a mellower sound. Fingerpicking blues and folk guitarist (like myself smile.gif) use medium gauge (.12) to get more sustain and a more brilliant sound. Heavy gauge is used for strumming because you won't do delicate fingerwork and get lots of overtones, making your strummed chords sound even fuller.

This post has been edited by Northpack: Oct 12 2011, 19:25
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greynol
post Oct 12 2011, 19:25
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QUOTE (Northpack @ Oct 12 2011, 11:07) *
I'll happily neglect this. It really doesn't make much of a difference when I do the same with a fretted F4.

Apparently you aren't neglecting this since you are now ensuring strings are terminated in the same way. I don't particularly care if the strings are played open or not. wink.gif

Still you aren't constraining enough variables; at least not enough to satisfy my take on the situation. Scale is extremely important.

...whatever, I think it's fair to say that differences on materials, construction, scale and string gauge come into play just as establishing a reference frequency on which to base a note all have a bearing on the sound of stringed instruments.


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dhromed
post Oct 12 2011, 19:33
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I can replicate the extra overtones on the open string vs the fretted string on all strings on my simple bass with, apparently, .045-.105 stainless steel roundwounds. Basically every successive higher string has more overtones than the previous. That doesn't seem too surprising.

I'm not entirely sure what problem we're trying to solve again, but hey, here's the data.
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botface
post Oct 12 2011, 19:35
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It has been felt at various periods in history that the key of a piece affects the mood (see here) but even if it is the case a difference of 35 cents or so (8Hz @ 440Hz) is relatively small.

So the real test here is to evaluate the differences, if any, between notes 35 cents apart. To complicate matters - assuming a guitar is being used - the chosen note would need to be played on the same fret/string, plucked at exactly the same point between nut and saddle, with the same finger/thumb/pick, using the same angle of attack, at exactly the same intensity with the instrument at exactly the same distance and angle from the mic (assuming an acoustic instrument). That's not as easy as it sounds especially as you will need to put the guitar down after the first note, retune and then pick it up to play the second note
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greynol
post Oct 12 2011, 19:41
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QUOTE (Northpack @ Oct 12 2011, 11:07) *
AFAIK most jazzies prefer lighter gauge strings, because they are easier to bend and have a mellower sound.
Have you looked at the the string diameters on a pack of strings labeled jazz from a company like D'Addario? Jazz light typically starts at 120 mils; jazz medium at 130 mils. Compare this with non-jazz-labeled gauges which start at 100 mils and 110 mils, respectively. Jazz players bend only very rarely, if at all.

QUOTE (Northpack @ Oct 12 2011, 11:07) *
Heavy gauge is used for strumming because you won't do delicate fingerwork and get lots of overtones, making your strummed chords sound even fuller.
If you're saying heavier gauge strings sound less thin then we definitely agree, otherwise we'll have to agree to disagree since I really don't have anything to prove here.

QUOTE (dhromed @ Oct 12 2011, 11:33) *
Basically every successive higher string has more overtones than the previous. That doesn't seem too surprising.
Let's not move the goal posts here.

To be clear, I took exception to the following:
QUOTE (Northpack @ Oct 12 2011, 03:56) *
I've experiented with alternate tunings on my guitar but if you tune the strings of a concert guitar more than two semitones above standard tuning the instrument begins to sound thin and harsh because the added tension inhibits too many lower resonances.

Tuning strings implies a change in tension with the scale remaining constant. Tests which do not hold the scale constant and adjust the tension constant are not relevant. Furthermore, the claim is talking about the inhibition of lower resonances. If this is to include overtones, it had better also include the fundamental.

@botface: I appreciate your reply. That said, I'm done with this matter.

This post has been edited by greynol: Oct 12 2011, 19:57


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dhromed
post Oct 12 2011, 20:14
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QUOTE (greynol @ Oct 12 2011, 20:41) *
Let's not move the goal posts here.

Right, missed a sentence earlier.
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MusX
post Jan 18 2014, 01:52
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anybody heard about foobar plugin to adjust pitch with 3 decimal places precision?
I found two but only with 2 decimal places to adjust.
I'm already tried -0.32, perform blind tests and I'm really surprised.
Did some of you tried blind tests on 432 vs 440? Definitely it should be the first step before going into discussion


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CoRoNe
post Jan 18 2014, 21:59
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foo_input_avs.
CODE
BassAudioSource("<filename>.flac")
TimeStretch(pitch=432.0/4.4)
ConvertAudioTo16bit()
Save as *.avs and feed to foobar2000.
But since that's not really practical for one's audio collection, I made a request, amongst other reasons, for foo_dsp_avs (without succes so far).

I haven't done any listening-tests, but Pitch Shift @ -0.32 semitones has been one of my standard DSPs for a couple of years now, and I like it very much.


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andy o
post Jan 19 2014, 00:27
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QUOTE (MusX @ Jan 17 2014, 16:52) *
Did some of you tried blind tests on 432 vs 440? Definitely it should be the first step before going into discussion

To determine what? I don't think anybody here doubts that they sound a little different.
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