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Topic: Crossover recommendations (Read 16165 times) previous topic - next topic
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Crossover recommendations

I would like to purchase 4 new speakers, a pair of studio monitors and a pair of subwoofers that would be used primarily for music.

My Hi-Fi consists of 2-channel stereo separates, a pre-amp and a power amp. I would like to purchase studio monitor speakers (placed on stands) and also purchase dual subwoofers for stereo playback.

Can anyone recommend a good crossover that would connect in-between the stereo pre-amp and the power amp. The crossover would pass the HF to the monitor speakers and pass the LF to each subwoofer.
Ad hominem attacks are not Science.

Crossover recommendations

Reply #1 –
Quote from: NaturalTimbre on
I would like to purchase 4 new speakers, a pair of studio monitors and a pair of subwoofers that would be used primarily for music.

My Hi-Fi consists of 2-channel stereo separates, a pre-amp and a power amp. I would like to purchase studio monitor speakers (placed on stands) and also purchase dual subwoofers for stereo playback.

Can anyone recommend a good crossover that would connect in-between the stereo pre-amp and the power amp. The crossover would pass the HF to the monitor speakers and pass the LF to each subwoofer.



MiniDSP in a box



There is also a version with balanced I/O for a few dollars more.

Crossover recommendations

Reply #2 –
Quote from: NaturalTimbre on
I would like to purchase 4 new speakers, a pair of studio monitors and a pair of subwoofers that would be used primarily for music.

My Hi-Fi consists of 2-channel stereo separates, a pre-amp and a power amp. I would like to purchase studio monitor speakers (placed on stands) and also purchase dual subwoofers for stereo playback.

Can anyone recommend a good crossover that would connect in-between the stereo pre-amp and the power amp. The crossover would pass the HF to the monitor speakers and pass the LF to each subwoofer.


Stereo perception doesn't exist at subwoofer frequencies.  We're talking about wavelengths several times the length of your body, let alone the distance between your ears.  Multiple subwoofers can help with even distribution in a room, but you have to be careful about phase cancellation.  If you don't have the ability to measure and freedom of placement for your subs, you could do more harm than good. 

That said, the LSR305's seem pretty popular.  I personally have a 12-inch closed SVS sub, and I'm pretty happy with it.

Crossover recommendations

Reply #3 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: NaturalTimbre on
I would like to purchase 4 new speakers, a pair of studio monitors and a pair of subwoofers that would be used primarily for music.

My Hi-Fi consists of 2-channel stereo separates, a pre-amp and a power amp. I would like to purchase studio monitor speakers (placed on stands) and also purchase dual subwoofers for stereo playback.

Can anyone recommend a good crossover that would connect in-between the stereo pre-amp and the power amp. The crossover would pass the HF to the monitor speakers and pass the LF to each subwoofer.



MiniDSP in a box



There is also a version with balanced I/O for a few dollars more.


Don't most monitors and powered subs have a crossover built in already?  A mini-DSP would only be useful for additional EQ.

Crossover recommendations

Reply #4 –
Some active subs have a crossover built in, you put the signal into the sub (or subs) and from there to the monitors, then set the crossover frequency on the sub(s). However, a lot of subs don't have this, or maybe the crossover frequency is fixed. Either way, for configurability, it's easiest to go with an external unit.

For crossover duties, I use a DBX Driverack PX "powered speaker optimizer" that I got second-hand for less than a MiniDSP kit. It does all kinds of things including EQ, compressor/limiter, subharmonic synthesis and room correction, but I only use the crossover. Like the MiniDSP, there's a selection of filter types of varying steepness and you can adjust the overlaps freely. A MiniDSP will work great as well, I just prefer the self-contained box where I don't need a Windows PC to configure stuff.

If you're on a budget or don't feel like playing around with DSPs, companies like DBX, Behringer etc. all make affordable analog active crossovers that are quite affordable and basically can't go wrong. The filters aren't as steep as what a DSP will do, but as long as you take that in account in relation to the natural rolloff of your speakers, they'll work just fine. My dad has used a DBX 223xs for years now for his band, and it works great.

Crossover recommendations

Reply #5 –
Wow, that MiniDSP looks awesome, thank you for the recommendation. I will definitely look into it.

So, it sounds like maybe two subwoofers might be overkill and one might be enough. I've noticed that most Hi-Fi stores use two subs in the stereo listening rooms and they sound great. I guess my analogy was comparing a pair of "full-range" tower speakers with 2 smaller monitor speakers and 2 subwoofers for deeper, controlled bass. I'm trying to get as close to 20-20,000 Hz as possible.
Ad hominem attacks are not Science.

Crossover recommendations

Reply #6 –
I started out with one sub, and while it was pretty good, I could definitely tell that there were peaks and nulls in the sound as I walked around my living room.

Getting another identical sub and experimenting a little with placement and phasing evened out the bass reproduction in the room significantly. It took a little trial and error, but I think a good starting point is playing a sine wave at the crossover frequency between your mains and sub, and then placing the new sub in one of the null zones in the room. Of course, furniture may complicate this, but usually there are a couple of suitable placement options.

I run the subs in mono, obviously. Stereo at sub-bass frequencies is something you'll only experience through headphones, and then it's usually due to messed up mixing/mastering.

Your first sub should be phased so you get the most output at your listening when playing a tone at the the crossover frequency. The second sub should be placed in a null as above, and then phased so the bass is most even through the room. This is of course a highly unscientific way to do it, but it worked really well for me, in my living room. I use two closed Dali SWA-12s.

I still get a noticeable bass peak in the hallway, but there's only so much you can do with a 18m^2 living room.

Crossover recommendations

Reply #7 –
Thanks KozmoNaut for all your advice. I am really excited about this project. All I have to do now is make a final decision the specific make and model of the crossover, the monitor speakers and subwoofer(s), then address the room acoustics (very important). That of course is going to take some experimentation.
Ad hominem attacks are not Science.

Crossover recommendations

Reply #8 –
I really like my Adam A5X monitors, but I think these days the JBL LSR 305/308 is the go-to active monitor, especially if you're in the US where the price difference is even greater.

Crossover recommendations

Reply #9 –
Yes, those Adam speakers look nice. KRK Systems monitors look good too. Great reviews on those as well.

Decisions, decisions.
Ad hominem attacks are not Science.

Crossover recommendations

Reply #10 –
You can get electronic crossovers from places that sell pro audio equipment.  Musician's Friend has about a dozen to choose from.

Crossover recommendations

Reply #11 –
I also have an area playback system based around a pair of nearfield monitors and multiple subs.

In my case a pair of ADAM A5X, on stands, and at least 2 subs. ADAM Sub 8s.

ADAM Pro Audio Products

The subs come with the more or less standard control options at tis level. Satellite pass through, volume, variable high pass filter (50-150 Hz), fixed satellite filter (85Hz), phase etc. Although at first I made extensive use of the excellent facilities on a MOTU Ultralite and the included Cuemix software and built in DSP.

Ultralite.
Cuemix

As well as operating as a monitor controller, headphone amp, DI box etc Cuemix offers easy to use graphical 7 band parametric EQ on all 14 output, 10 input and 8 mixer channels simultaneously. Effectively an infinitely flexible active crossover. This led to hours, weeks, possibly even weeks of 'fun' tuning the total system to my room. \the Ultralite is fairly expensive at ~$600 but there are two cheaper option in the range, Microbook and Audio express, which could do the same job.

Recently however I have started using an simple home made plain wave bass array with the addition of another sub, the EVE TS107. 

TS107

So now the stereo output from the monitor controller goes into the small EVE, then I take the right passthrough to one Sub 8 and one A5X and the left channel to the other pair. This has the virtue of being very simple and as the TS107 has fantastic control options (all available via the supplied remote) I can control overall system volume and switch in and out the subwoofers at will from anywhere in the room.

Quality German audio gear is expensive in the US so if I lived there I might consider using JBL speakers and subs and a Focusrite 6i6 to get more or less (no remote or single stop sub cut out) for less money.

If I had more money I would have a system based around two Neuman KH120 and as many Neuman KH810s as I coulf afford. that would be self calibrating.

Neumann Products

Hope that has given you some more ideas. Good luck.

Crossover recommendations

Reply #12 –
Quote from: theriverlethe on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: NaturalTimbre on
I would like to purchase 4 new speakers, a pair of studio monitors and a pair of subwoofers that would be used primarily for music.

My Hi-Fi consists of 2-channel stereo separates, a pre-amp and a power amp. I would like to purchase studio monitor speakers (placed on stands) and also purchase dual subwoofers for stereo playback.

Can anyone recommend a good crossover that would connect in-between the stereo pre-amp and the power amp. The crossover would pass the HF to the monitor speakers and pass the LF to each subwoofer.



MiniDSP in a box



There is also a version with balanced I/O for a few dollars more.


Don't most monitors and powered subs have a crossover built in already?  A mini-DSP would only be useful for additional EQ.


Monitors generally don't have built in high pass filters for crossing over.

Active subwoofers often do, but not necessarily.

When the active subwoofer's crossover high pass filter may not be what you want, the usual approach is to set the subwoofer crossover as high as possible and rely on the high pass filters in the external crossover being set so much lower that there is no interference.

Crossover recommendations

Reply #13 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: theriverlethe on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: NaturalTimbre on
I would like to purchase 4 new speakers, a pair of studio monitors and a pair of subwoofers that would be used primarily for music.

My Hi-Fi consists of 2-channel stereo separates, a pre-amp and a power amp. I would like to purchase studio monitor speakers (placed on stands) and also purchase dual subwoofers for stereo playback.

Can anyone recommend a good crossover that would connect in-between the stereo pre-amp and the power amp. The crossover would pass the HF to the monitor speakers and pass the LF to each subwoofer.



MiniDSP in a box



There is also a version with balanced I/O for a few dollars more.


Don't most monitors and powered subs have a crossover built in already?  A mini-DSP would only be useful for additional EQ.


Monitors generally don't have built in high pass filters for crossing over.

Active subwoofers often do, but not necessarily.

When the active subwoofer's crossover high pass filter may not be what you want, the usual approach is to set the subwoofer crossover as high as possible and rely on the high pass filters in the external crossover being set so much lower that there is no interference.


Ah, I had a pair of a Mackies with 80Hz, 50Hz and 35Hz settings.  He'll almost certainly need EQ at sub frequencies, anyway...

Crossover recommendations

Reply #14 –
Wow, much misinfo here. Ok, many active studio monitors do indeed have built in switchable high pass filters, as mentioned, Mackie, Presonus, Behringer, etc. Not continuously variable, but the subs will have that feature to get a good phase match, with proper positioning.
Note I said "subs". Statistically, it's next to impossible to get smooth amplitude at the LP with one sub, unless you sit on it. If your listening preferences include classical/jazz, etc acoustic music, you definitely want stereo subs to reproduce stereo content all the way down to 40hz or so.


cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Crossover recommendations

Reply #15 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
Wow, much misinfo here. Ok, many active studio monitors do indeed have built in switchable high pass filters, as mentioned, Mackie, Presonus, Behringer, etc. Not continuously variable, but the subs will have that feature to get a good phase match, with proper positioning.
Note I said "subs". Statistically, it's next to impossible to get smooth amplitude at the LP with one sub, unless you sit on it. If your listening preferences include classical/jazz, etc acoustic music, you definitely want stereo subs to reproduce stereo content all the way down to 40hz or so.


cheers,

AJ


Two to four subs can help if set up properly, but you do not want "stereo" subs.

Crossover recommendations

Reply #16 –
Quote from: theriverlethe on


Two to four subs can help if set up properly, but you do not want "stereo" subs.

You don't. Clearly others do. I, personally, don't just listen to commercial pop music and movie booms. So I do need "stereo" into sub range. If using subs as discussed in this thread, that means stereo subs. I don't listen to steady state signals either. At any frequency. Classical/Jazz etc is quite impulsive.
The OP can decide for himself whether steady state mono pop floats his boat or not. YMMV.

cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Crossover recommendations

Reply #17 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
Quote from: theriverlethe on


Two to four subs can help if set up properly, but you do not want "stereo" subs.

You don't. Clearly others do. I, personally, don't just listen to commercial pop music and movie booms. So I do need "stereo" into sub range. If using subs as discussed in this thread, that means stereo subs. I don't listen to steady state signals either. At any frequency. Classical/Jazz etc is quite impulsive.
The OP can decide for himself whether steady state mono pop floats his boat or not. YMMV.

cheers,

AJ


Eh?  A subwoofer properly configured with an 80hz or lower crossover is not possible to localize.

Edit: This article ( http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may05/articles/qa0505_2.htm ) mentions something about higher-frequency harmonic distortion from a subwoofer "pulling" the stereo image, but that sounds like an argument for a better subwoofer, not more of them.

Crossover recommendations

Reply #18 –
I bet if you had proper "stereo" bass, you could ABX two subs fed in stereo against the same two subs fed in summed mono. There must be recordings where electrical summing changes the bass content, and acoustical summing is never the same as electrical summing, so it's inevitable.

I don't know if I have many recordings like that, and I have no idea if proper stereo subs would give me something closer to the original sound, or something more pleasing, or a mess. Has anyone ever tried this ABX test?

Cheers,
David.

Crossover recommendations

Reply #19 –
No, I don't think anyone ever has.

There are huge hurdles to overcome too before it would be proper. 99% of people with stereophonic subs are hearing a new, third frequency response that differs from sub 1 and sub 2 alone. As you mentioned, summing in the acoustical domain and in the electrical domain aren't the same thing, especially with sub frequencies.

Even if they are literally the same sub model, sub1's placement may accentuate 40Hz yet sub 2's placement accentuates 60 Hz. For this test to be proper you would need to prove that the audible difference wasn't simply because the dissimilar frequency peaks/dips in the recording weren't being favored or suppressed by the particular channel they were in.

Crossover recommendations

Reply #20 –
Quote from: theriverlethe on


Eh?  A subwoofer properly configured with an 80hz or lower crossover is not possible to localize.

I see reading comprehension isn't your forte.
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Crossover recommendations

Reply #21 –
Quote from: 2Bdecided on
I bet if you had proper "stereo" bass, you could ABX two subs fed in stereo against the same two subs fed in summed mono. There must be recordings where electrical summing changes the bass content, and acoustical summing is never the same as electrical summing, so it's inevitable.

There is no precedence being set here. This is already established. A preference test (like Harman runs) need only be A/B to establish preference.
Of course, as mentioned already, it also has to do with music preference and whether the music is likely to contain LF interchannel phase differences to begin with.
That's up to the OP to decide.
Even if he is ok with just smoother amplitude bass quality, that is highly unlikely in real rooms, with just one sub, unless (very) nearfield.

cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Crossover recommendations

Reply #22 –
Quote from: NaturalTimbre on
I would like to purchase 4 new speakers, a pair of studio monitors and a pair of subwoofers that would be used primarily for music.

My Hi-Fi consists of 2-channel stereo separates, a pre-amp and a power amp. I would like to purchase studio monitor speakers (placed on stands) and also purchase dual subwoofers for stereo playback.

Can anyone recommend a good crossover that would connect in-between the stereo pre-amp and the power amp. The crossover would pass the HF to the monitor speakers and pass the LF to each subwoofer.

Some active monitors have built in switchable hi pass filters. Any decent sub will have a variable low pass (and phase). Some will have pass thru capability. So your stereo pre feeds subs line ins, line outs to monitors with their high passes engage. No need for any XO here. EQ is another matter, if desired.

cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer