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Eac, Gaps And Cuesheets, Cuesheets are not needed for gaps
Pio2001
post Oct 16 2002, 01:12
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QUOTE (Volcano @ Oct 15 2002 - 01:15 AM)
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There is no need to use cuesheets in order to get secure 1:1 copies. You just have to copy tracks, then burn them.


But does it work if you're copying a live album or a mix CD?


Yes.

QUOTE (Volcano @ Oct 15 2002 - 01:15 AM)
I remember getting some notice from Nero when I set the track gaps to 0 sec on a new Audio CD compilation that my burner didn't support this  


Yes, Nero mistakes track gap and session pregap. For each track >=2, Nero displays the gap between the track and the previous one as a "pause". But there is no track before track 1. So Nero displays the session pregap as a "pause" in front of track 1. This is this pregap that can't be set to zero.
Therefore you should, with Nero, set all pauses to zero, save the first one, that is not a pause !

QUOTE (Volcano @ Oct 15 2002 - 01:15 AM)
What I consider a "secure 1:1 copy" must be made in a way that it has no glitches (which is what you'd probably call "secure") and that the track lengths and gaps match the original, so that, for example, FreeDB recognizes the CD (you'd probably call that "exact"). smile.gif


Gaps are included into the tracks. No need for a cuesheet. This is one of the two awful FAQs in EAC, that makes people loose time, and that is not properly adressed anywhere.
What a cuesheet call GAP is NOT the gap, but a SUBCHANNEL MARKER. This marker is nearly NEVER used. No computer software use it to play CDs digitally, and hifi players only access it when you set the time display on "track elapsed time". The markers are then used to change the signums of the display at some given times between the tracks. They are NEVER used to play audio, even when you skip between tracks, they are only there for the time display. CDDB don't use them either.
That's all the cuesheet brings about "gaps" when copying.

The other FAQ is worse : it is of course offsets, that people are chasing like a graal, spending time in finding the most possible CDs in order to check the values... Some believe that if the offsets are not corrected, the tracks won't be properly joined, other even think that no secure mode is possible without offset correction, and there has been some quitting using EAC because they couldn't find their offsets...

These two problems were very well adressed in a exellent french tutorial that was translated into english. Unfortunately, the author wanted to publish it on his own webpage first, but never found the time so far to set it up.
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Shiki
post Oct 16 2002, 02:24
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So you mean all I need to do is extract the tracks to my HD with offset correction, and that's it? No need for cue sheet or anything? What if I burn back a CD with the cue sheet and its gap settings?
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Continuum
post Oct 16 2002, 07:16
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QUOTE (Pio2001 @ Oct 16 2002 - 02:12 AM)
QUOTE (Volcano @ Oct 15 2002 - 01:15 AM)
QUOTE
There is no need to use cuesheets in order to get secure 1:1 copies. You just have to copy tracks, then burn them.


But does it work if you're copying a live album or a mix CD?


Yes.

[...]

What a cuesheet call GAP is NOT the gap, but a SUBCHANNEL MARKER. This marker is nearly NEVER used. No computer software use it to play CDs digitally, and hifi players only access it when you set the time display on "track elapsed time". The markers are then used to change the signums of the display at some given times between the tracks. They are NEVER used to play audio, even when you skip between tracks, they are only there for the time display.

I wouldn't call a copy with wrong/lost subchannel information a secure 1:1 copy. They are used sometimes to include spoken commentary that isn't played when a track is started directly. And they are useful to identify the pause between the end of the last work and the beginning of the next one.
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Pio2001
post Oct 16 2002, 12:01
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QUOTE (Shiki @ Oct 16 2002 - 04:24 AM)
What if I burn back a CD with the cue sheet and its gap settings?

Only the time display, for CD that have indexes 0, will be affected on your CD player. It will display Track 5 -00:02 instead of Track 04 05:37, for example.
QUOTE (Continuum @ Oct 16 2002 - 09:16 AM)
They are used sometimes to include spoken commentary that isn't played when a track is started directly.

Without them, the spoken commentary will still be there, and it won't be played when accessing directly the track.
Each track is played from the index 1 to the next index 1. Extraction works the same way.
If some commentary is added at the end of a track (=before the beginning of the next), you can set an index 0 at its beginning, it won't change anything. Only indexes 1 are taken into account for playback.

QUOTE (Continuum @ Oct 16 2002 - 09:16 AM)
And they are useful to identify the pause between the end of the last work and the beginning of the next one.


They can be useful if you want to remove the pauses for making induvidual mp3s, but anyway you'll have to check track by track that they are all properly set. And as a result, songs that have nothing to do with each other will be joined together if you remove all the silence.
Is there another use in identifying the pause ?
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Volcano
post Oct 16 2002, 12:38
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Sorry folks... but can anybody explain to me what exactly a subchannel is? Ever since I've been burning CDs, I've been wondering what on earth it may be... smile.gif
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CiTay
post Oct 16 2002, 15:30
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QUOTE (Volcano @ Oct 16 2002 - 01:38 PM)
can anybody explain to me what exactly a subchannel is?

Sure. As you may know, there is not only the audio data on a CD, but also other information. The largest part is indeed the audio data, but there are also parity bits, sync bits, and subcode bits. The datarate of the audio stream is 1.41 Mbps, and the datarate of the subchannels is 58.8 kbps. This means that for each 24 bytes of audio data, there is 1 byte of subchannel data.

1 byte = 8 bits, and because there are 8 subchannels, there's 1 bit per subchannel:

P-channel: Indicates start and end of each track
Q-channel: Timecodes, track type, catalogue number and TOC in the lead-in
R- to W- channels: CD-TEXT and sub-code graphics.

Hope this helps. smile.gif
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Reiginsei
post Oct 16 2002, 15:47
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How do I make 0 second gaps in between tracks with B's Recorder Gold?
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Volcano
post Oct 17 2002, 00:10
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Citay: Yes, that pretty much clears it up. Thanks smile.gif
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AtaqueEG
post Oct 30 2002, 08:48
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So basically, PIO2001, you have utter contempt for index 0? ohmy.gif

I happen to really like it myself, for example I sometimes burn concert shows that I tape from TV and I REALLY like to place the spoken word comentaries (for example when the singer is introducing the band, or telling what the song is about) in the pregap. I first took notice of that aproach from the Pearl Jam "official bootlegs" and I think it looks very professional and neat. You know, the contdown to the actual beginning of the song.
I certainly want to preserve that if I make a copy of such CDs.


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Pio2001
post Oct 30 2002, 12:22
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QUOTE (AtaqueEG @ Oct 30 2002 - 10:48 AM)
So basically, PIO2001, you have utter contempt for index 0?

Well, I must admit that Infrared Archer made a valid point about indexes 0 in the other thread : http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....=ST&f=20&t=1642

What I fight with all my energy is the false idea that without indexes 0, the gaps are left out, and that people must absolutely find a software supporting cuesheets and a drive supporting gap detection in order to copy the gaps.
No ! Without detecting gaps, without indexes 0, the audio data, including gaps, commentary, etc, is properly copied.



Edit : fixed link

This post has been edited by Pio2001: Nov 22 2002, 12:40
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liekloo
post Nov 21 2002, 17:07
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In some cases accurate gap detection (automatically by EAC or not) is needed for good results (think of coninuously mixed CDs).

Some people claim that a not corrected offset
will cause hearable 'errors' (clicks, dropouts) in the extracted audio.
Normally offset correction doesn't make a difference, but as gap detection accuracy is important in this case... could the tiny offset matter here?

Does anyone have experience with this?


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ancl
post Nov 21 2002, 17:54
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As Pio have said some times now, there is no need for gap detection at all. (This is also true for continuously mixed CDs.)

If you use a ripper that don't have gap detection, or choose not to use it in EAC you will still get all audio data with no missing or added sounds between. The only time you will get missing data is if you use a gap detection that is not working properly.

Conclusion: Don't use gap detection - it is not needed! (unless for getting the indexes 0 marker)
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Pio2001
post Nov 21 2002, 18:52
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QUOTE (ancl @ Nov 21 2002 - 07:54 PM)
The only time you will get missing data is if you use a gap detection that is not working properly.

In addition, you need to "leave out gaps" in order to miss data.

How could a non detected offset produce some clicks ? All Hifi CD players have an uncorrected offset, and they don't click.

A variable offset (non accurate stream) may cause some clicks if the "synch between tracks" is not enabled, or if the tracks are extracted in "test and copy" mode. Corrected or not.

This post has been edited by Pio2001: Nov 21 2002, 18:54
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liekloo
post Nov 21 2002, 20:03
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(hehe)

Pio has a hard time stressing that offset correction doesn't make an audible difference, in no situation, in really none of them, nor in this one.
But it's much appreciated.

QUOTE
QUOTE, Ancl : As Pio have said some times now, there is no need for gap detection at all. (This is also true for continuously mixed CDs.)


Sorry, "gap detection" is probably a not accurate enough and even confusing word. Instead of "automatic gap detection by EAC spontaneously" I should have said "gap inclusion, copying".
Thx anyway. wink.gif


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